Fine English

[Sam]

This was part of a demonstration I did last week at the JCK show. I still need to do some crosshatching.

I have very limited experience cutting this style of scroll and was in the mood to do something different. Very monotonous work, and I'm sure the fine english experts will tear it apart as it's probably not cut per tradition.

 

[Beathard]

Dang Sam. Graver control that I can only dream about!

 

[Marcus Hunt]

No, not cut as "per tradition" but still looks lovely.

 

[DakotaDocMartin]

I'm the same age as that worn Lincoln penny and feeling/looking as ragged. Very nice engraving by the way.

 

[jetta77]

Turned out fantastic Sam. It was nice to chat with you a bit in Vegas. Hope you enjoyed your trip

 

[jetta77]

Also Julie's new book can be purchased of her website at warenskiknives.com

 

[Mike Cirelli]

I think it looks good Sam. Maybe that could be considered as American English scroll.

 

[bigransom]

Sam, that work is gorgeous! I'm hoping that I can glean enough from Marcus's new book to be able to cut some non-traditional, poor english scrolling like that.

And PS: Your video on scroll work start to finish is great. Highly recommended. Thanks again!
br.

 

[monk]

with work of that quality, only a maroney would critisize this.

 

[Southern Custom]

It is a wonderful thing to see traditional English scroll, but when you leave the rules behind, wonderful things can happen. English scroll as we know it had to come from somewhere. What did it look like during it's evolution and for that matter, should it not continue to evolve? As long as it follows some basic rules of style, tradition and similarity, could it not still be English scroll? Maybe "New School" English Scroll? I can't really speak with any authority on the subject as I've never cut the style.
Regardless, Sam, whatever it is you did, I love it. The Alfano school of English scroll.

 

[Sam]

Thanks guys

Here's a shot of the entire practice plate. I think it's easier to get a better sense of its size.

Bram sent me a photo on Facebook and some tips on cutting fine English in the traditional way. I'll have a go at it as soon as I get time

 

[SamW]

That has a real look to it Sam. Depth and style. I have always called my efforts along this line as english style scroll as opposed to english scroll. Even Churchill's scroll, which is to die for, I call english style. Marcus can claim 'english scroll'.

 

[mitch]

this is something i've been mulling over for some years now, and i think it's time to start referring to "American Fine Scroll", or perhaps "Churchill Fine Scroll", in honor of the man who really started getting creative with traditional English scroll years ago. Winston's complex intertwined layouts, rich depth, & soaring movement breathed new life into what had become a lovely, but staid- even stagnant, art form.

we Yanks have been bending the rules on this style for quite awhile now, and it's high time we stopped pretending otherwise.

 

[mrthe]

Very cool work! i'm not familiar with english scrolls but for me look super

 

[billrice@charter.net]

Sam as always beautiful work. I would still like to see the flare cut engraving you was working on at JCK.

 

[Roger Bleile]

To begin with I'd like to say that Sam's rendering of "English" scroll is delightful as are all of his creations.

Since this thread had evolved (or devolved) into a discussion of English scroll (also known as "fine scroll"), I'd like to make some observations and pose some questions on the subject.

Marcus Hunt is rightly the Engraver's Café resident expert on the subject since he is an English engraver who works within the English gun trade and he was trained by his father, Ken who is one of the greats of English engraving. With that said, if I understand him correctly, he has asserted that there is one specific way to design and cut English scroll.

My question is, if that is correct, why are there so many different variations of English scroll found on English guns? In my photo archives I have about a thousand examples of British guns (mostly made in London and Birmingham) that exhibit a wide variety of ways to cut English scroll.

For a long time each London firm, such as Purdey, H&H, Wm. Evans, Boss, etc., had what is known as a "house" style of engraving that was cut on their (non-special order) guns either by in house engravers or by outworkers such as Harry Kell or Jack Sumner. This approach gave each company's guns a distinctive look. While the layout was different for each company one might expect that the scrolls within the layout would all be cut the same way regardless of the company or engraver. I don't find this to be the case.

Where guns cut in-house at Purdey, for example, do show uniformity, I can see considerable variation from outworkers. In fact, within Sumner's shop, where there was more than one engraver, I can see variations on various parts of the same gun, as it was the practice for Sumner to cut the action and have others cut the multitude of smaller parts.

All of this begs the question: If there is only on way to cut proper English scroll, Why do I find so many variations on the theme within the English gun trade?

European variations on the subject are another matter as engravers in Liege, Suhl, Ferlach, Gardone, and Eibar all have their own interpretations.

I have attached some examples of English guns below.

 

[Roger Bleile]

More examples

Here are some more examples from Purdey and Westley Richards.

 

[Christian DeCamillis]

Roger,

The technique for cutting this fine English is the same . The difference is i who is cutting. Just like handwriting we all use the same technique but our results are all somewhat unique.

I learned to cut English in Italy. After meeting Marcus and then taking the course with his father. they taught me the suttle differences that make it proper. although slight in differences sometimes the results were much better. One important thing i learned was that the measure as to the size of the backbones or rings and they call them and how they need to become gradually smaller made a big difference. also the way one come off the other is very important. the Italians seem to ignore this and it make a world of difference. it can be challenging sometimes given the odd shapes to fill.

Sam's scroll looks good but there are a couple of places where the scrolls according to the rules are not going in the proper direction. It still looks good but if they were changed the whole thing would have a different flow to it.

The other suttle thing i was taught was to purposely omit some of the cuts here or there to give it a more organic look. My scroll before were cookie cutter. When i changed and started to do that it made a world of difference . It isn't in your face stuff but when yolu look at the design as a whole it changes it's apperance a lot.

I will say that if you cut the English according to the rules of the English it will make the end result the best. Look at those last two Purdeys they are alive. I never get tired of looking at English that is done properly. When it's not that's a different story.

Learning to do English made a big difference in the amount of work i have relieved. many in the US don't or won't do it. and there are a lot of people who want it. It's a classic and everyone should learn to do it. Just like lettering. if your going to engrave you need to learn to do English scroll and do it properly. Of course later you can break the rules that's inevitably. But like anything you need to do and understand the rules before you break them.

Chris

 

[Southern Custom]

So maybe we should consider the overall form rather than the individual leaf cuts. What are the common elements that make it recognizable as "English Scroll". Scroll repetition, outside work, bouquet etc. Thanks for the post Roger. Looking at those photos reminds me of why this art form is so compelling. No two engravers will make the same cuts and that provides endless variety even within the constraints of a particular style. I'm sure Marcus would have a word or two on the subject.

 

[SamW]

There is "rose and scroll" and then there is "daisies and ringworms". And much argument over either/or.