Dulltool
Elite Cafe Member
Frank,
Attacking Andrew and his work is very not cool.
Attacking Andrew and his work is very not cool.
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Engraving system from china any good for a beginner
- Thread starter Bigarmedmike
- Start date
Doc Mark
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
OK, so I'm safe with using whatever Hungarian, Irish, French and a smattering of American Indian (Gotta' love that old ancestral French trapper from 150 years ago!) designs I wish. Great, It means I will have to stop doing any English scroll, but what the hell, I sure don't want to offend anyone of my English friends.
You know what? I may just throw caution to the wind and do a few Inuit designs on the next knife I engrave, or maybe Maori, or Nepalese, or Scandinavian. If I offend anyone it will probably be because of my inadequate rendition of their designs, not because I had the temerity to use them. And even if some particular sect is offended by my non-ethnic use of "their" symbols, well, in the words of one of my favorite fictional characters, "Frankly my dear, I don't give a Damn!"
Man, I'm getting so tired of the oversensitivity of some people that it really makes me want to lash out in ways I wouldn't have even thought of before. Quit behaving as victims and maybe others will stop treating you as such!
Stepping off my soapbox now.
You know what? I may just throw caution to the wind and do a few Inuit designs on the next knife I engrave, or maybe Maori, or Nepalese, or Scandinavian. If I offend anyone it will probably be because of my inadequate rendition of their designs, not because I had the temerity to use them. And even if some particular sect is offended by my non-ethnic use of "their" symbols, well, in the words of one of my favorite fictional characters, "Frankly my dear, I don't give a Damn!"
Man, I'm getting so tired of the oversensitivity of some people that it really makes me want to lash out in ways I wouldn't have even thought of before. Quit behaving as victims and maybe others will stop treating you as such!
Stepping off my soapbox now.
frank h
Member
Dull Tool,
Why is it OK for him to attack someone but not cool for me? Beside I wasn't attacking his work. please don't put words in my mouth that aren't there. So would those of you who have voiced that using native designs is OK , also agree that using anyone 's design be OK as well. Can we then just use Sam's designs since they are based on scrolls that have been used for centuries. None of your arguments hold water or have any logic , because with this logic we should be able to do what ever the heck we want because we don't give a damn.
Frank
Why is it OK for him to attack someone but not cool for me? Beside I wasn't attacking his work. please don't put words in my mouth that aren't there. So would those of you who have voiced that using native designs is OK , also agree that using anyone 's design be OK as well. Can we then just use Sam's designs since they are based on scrolls that have been used for centuries. None of your arguments hold water or have any logic , because with this logic we should be able to do what ever the heck we want because we don't give a damn.
Frank
Dulltool
Elite Cafe Member
Frank.... get a life.
Red Green
Elite Cafe Member
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2011
- Messages
- 391
I think the point is that we do give a damn. You must not be an artist or you would easily see the difference between copying scrollwork and using a scroll in a design. Why are you so unhappy about Andrews opinion about Chinese knock offs? Are you a importer?
Bob
Bob
Doc Mark
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Your comparing the individual art work of one individual artist vs. the "Style" of art developed over centuries (even millennia, in some cases). There is no comparison. I can write a musical composition in a Baroque style or manner, and it's mine! I cannot, however, copy a Scarlatti or Vivaldi work and call it mine.
"So would those of you who have voiced that using native designs is OK , also agree that using anyone 's design be OK as well." There in lies the key! "Anyone" is not to be construed to mean an entire race of people and their common Artistic Style development, built up of many artists' copying one another, while adding their own twists over centuries. "Anyone", in this context, means one individual artist and his/her specific creations. These can be copywrite protected. And frankly, the judgement of a few uneducated juries concerning the inconsequential naming of a few sports teams has virtually NOTHING to do with the rightness or wrongness of the act a utilizing the signs and symbols of a culture that is not your own. I've seen many tourists with engraved metal cartouches with ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics very loosely interpreted to represent the buyer's name. Is this an insult to the Egyptians, who by the way, have not used that particular form of writing for a couple of millenia? Or is it permissible because most of the artisans doing this type of work are indeed, Egyptians? I, on the other hand would be in some sort of copywrite infringement, if I were to do the same thing. Nonsense!
"So would those of you who have voiced that using native designs is OK , also agree that using anyone 's design be OK as well." There in lies the key! "Anyone" is not to be construed to mean an entire race of people and their common Artistic Style development, built up of many artists' copying one another, while adding their own twists over centuries. "Anyone", in this context, means one individual artist and his/her specific creations. These can be copywrite protected. And frankly, the judgement of a few uneducated juries concerning the inconsequential naming of a few sports teams has virtually NOTHING to do with the rightness or wrongness of the act a utilizing the signs and symbols of a culture that is not your own. I've seen many tourists with engraved metal cartouches with ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics very loosely interpreted to represent the buyer's name. Is this an insult to the Egyptians, who by the way, have not used that particular form of writing for a couple of millenia? Or is it permissible because most of the artisans doing this type of work are indeed, Egyptians? I, on the other hand would be in some sort of copywrite infringement, if I were to do the same thing. Nonsense!
frank h
Member
Dull tool,
It was you who decided to debate here and when you don't like the result all you can do is tell me to get a life. You had a choice to not have an opinion and when it doesn't go your way you retreat with words that have no substance.
Red Green, No I am a goldsmith my information is here for anyone to view. It's not Andrews opinion about the Chinese knock offs being of bad quality. I am sure he is right. It's the fact that he made untrue accusations by saying that it is blatant theft. Yet one could access the same about his designs. Now I am not saying that is what I believe to be true I am pointing out that it could be that way if you chose to.
Frank
It was you who decided to debate here and when you don't like the result all you can do is tell me to get a life. You had a choice to not have an opinion and when it doesn't go your way you retreat with words that have no substance.
Red Green, No I am a goldsmith my information is here for anyone to view. It's not Andrews opinion about the Chinese knock offs being of bad quality. I am sure he is right. It's the fact that he made untrue accusations by saying that it is blatant theft. Yet one could access the same about his designs. Now I am not saying that is what I believe to be true I am pointing out that it could be that way if you chose to.
Frank
Red Green
Elite Cafe Member
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2011
- Messages
- 391
Wow, so your statements are not your opinion but a possible opinion of someone else. Do you have an opinion, or perhaps a different possible opinion? I don't know anything about legal import issues and am really not all that concerned as the government cares little about what I think. He is however entitled to his opinion, it may turn out that he also is stating a possible opinion of someone else and that will clear up everything.
Bob
Bob
frank h
Member
This is an opinion. It may be true or not true i don't have any first hand knowledge. I would take his word on that.
This is not an opinion it is a statement of fact. It is incorrect. It is not theft based on law.
does this make what I said clear?
Frank
Dulltool
Elite Cafe Member
This is not even close to being a debate.... it's an attack on a fellow engraver and his integrity.
Hey Frank. If you don't Andrew's comment then just let it go. If you don't like that or think it's unfair, then don't participate here. Andrew does more for the art of engraving than a hundred people and he assists me in the moderation of this great forum.
:no: I don't want to hear any other comments on the subject from anyone. You've all made your points. Now let it go and move on.
:no: I don't want to hear any other comments on the subject from anyone. You've all made your points. Now let it go and move on.
Andrew Biggs
Moderator
Wow!! I have been busy for the day and so have you guys by the looks of it. 
I stand by what I said about the Chinese knock offs. If others disagree then that's fine by me. I don't consider myself the last word on anything.
However, frank h raises an interesting point that is worthy of a thread all by itself. That is "intellectual rights on indigenous art" It's a topic that is hotly debated here in New Zealand from time to time while the rest of us just get on with doing it.
Generally the argument revolves around things like money and setting up an organization to police it, all of who are paid handsomely of course. Naturally it is the lawyers, accountants and disenfranchised that screech the loudest because they have the most to gain............... I simply can't be bothered with any of that. It would simply suck the soul out of me so I just carry on and do my own thing like most other artists and simply ignore the chatter.
It's interesting that someone living on the other side of the world raises the subject about my work but no one at home ever has. People have written books on the subject and still be no clearer as to the rights and wrongs of it.
The word Maori is a generic term only. The word never really existed before Pakeha arrived because they saw themselves as iwi (tribe) or hapu (family). Maori identify themselves by their iwi (tribe)
frank h..............you are wrong on so many counts I don't even know where to start and I am just too busy to be get into a debate about it. It's not my place in the world to try and change your mind, or anyone else's, and I'm not even going to try.I know you were not trying to insult me and I have taken no offence.
For the record..............The designs are 100% my own and my own personal interpretations of the Maori style combined with authentic stories. I do this with a great deal of research, integrity and respect because this is also part of my shared heritage as a New Zealander. To do otherwise would be insulting to those that buy the work, my country, my fellow Kiwi's and myself. I do not expect you or anyone else to understand that feeling.
The Maori style is not copyrighted just like the French style, Italian style, English style, Celtic style or any other style for that matter. However individuals obviously copyright their own individual work...and so they should. The Maori style is a generic thing and it's always the individual that interprets this and comes up with the actual design. This is as true today as it was 1000 years ago. All art evolves and we are the richer for it.
Cheers
Andrew
P.S. I'm with Sam. Let's just let it go and leave it at that.
I stand by what I said about the Chinese knock offs. If others disagree then that's fine by me. I don't consider myself the last word on anything.
However, frank h raises an interesting point that is worthy of a thread all by itself. That is "intellectual rights on indigenous art" It's a topic that is hotly debated here in New Zealand from time to time while the rest of us just get on with doing it.
Generally the argument revolves around things like money and setting up an organization to police it, all of who are paid handsomely of course. Naturally it is the lawyers, accountants and disenfranchised that screech the loudest because they have the most to gain............... I simply can't be bothered with any of that. It would simply suck the soul out of me so I just carry on and do my own thing like most other artists and simply ignore the chatter.
It's interesting that someone living on the other side of the world raises the subject about my work but no one at home ever has. People have written books on the subject and still be no clearer as to the rights and wrongs of it.
The word Maori is a generic term only. The word never really existed before Pakeha arrived because they saw themselves as iwi (tribe) or hapu (family). Maori identify themselves by their iwi (tribe)
frank h..............you are wrong on so many counts I don't even know where to start and I am just too busy to be get into a debate about it. It's not my place in the world to try and change your mind, or anyone else's, and I'm not even going to try.I know you were not trying to insult me and I have taken no offence.
For the record..............The designs are 100% my own and my own personal interpretations of the Maori style combined with authentic stories. I do this with a great deal of research, integrity and respect because this is also part of my shared heritage as a New Zealander. To do otherwise would be insulting to those that buy the work, my country, my fellow Kiwi's and myself. I do not expect you or anyone else to understand that feeling.
The Maori style is not copyrighted just like the French style, Italian style, English style, Celtic style or any other style for that matter. However individuals obviously copyright their own individual work...and so they should. The Maori style is a generic thing and it's always the individual that interprets this and comes up with the actual design. This is as true today as it was 1000 years ago. All art evolves and we are the richer for it.
Cheers
Andrew
P.S. I'm with Sam. Let's just let it go and leave it at that.
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