Help, please: engraving patterns

[Marcus Hunt]

Chris, your points are very correct as well. The difference in all of this amounts to what you want to do.
I would have to say that a good majority of the people on this forum are looking into engraving as "fun". Some people buy a fishing boat, some go skiing and some buy engraving equipment. Some may play guitar. I suppose everyone hopes to become Eric Clapton but in reality they are doing it to have a fun hobby and never make it past a couple of songs. The same goes for engraving. They may only want to engrave a 22 rifle for "little Billy".
There is NO substitute for drawing.... I won't argue that it can be learned. It just amounts to where you want to go. You are not going to win awards with a transferred design but on the other hand you can put a squirrel on that little 22 to pass on down.

Rex, I agree with you to an extent but what is wrong with doing your hobby to the best of your ability? And, if you take your squirrel example won't it look a whole lot better if you at least know how the hair lays on an animal? If you cut it going in the wrong direction you end up with a mess. Same with scrolls that grow in the wrong direction or large scrolls that grow from small ones unbalancing the design.

Anyone can just scratch a design or animal on "Little Billy's" .22 and it can look awful. But imagine when Billy grows up and give his son the rifle and he can look at that squirrel with real pride (because it looks like a squirrel and not a blob) and he can say "Your Grandpa did that." Or even further down the line, "your Great Grandpa did that!"

 

[Red Green]

I agree with Mr. Dubber, there are far more ways to skin a cat than most people think, if the artist is looking for a passage for expression they will find a way, to do so through encouragement is far easier than denial and refusal by those they respect for their skill or art.

I know I have some unpopular ideas about art, however drawing and engraving are mutually exclusive skills and are not art in themselves. No amount of skill or knowledge makes you an artist, skill is simply the conveyance for communicating ideas into reality. I believe there is value in engraving the art of others and it may lead to more than skill possibly even inspiration.

Perhaps a cooperative effort would work well between artist and artisan, it could be as simple as using a system somewhat like Mike's gun transfer system, seems like a far better way than rejecting new engravers because of a possible temporary lack of skill, or even if they only wish to engrave and not design, and it may prove profitable for both artist and artisan. Let's face it every line in any engraving including shading can be preplanned and executed by anyone with a skilled hand. It may not be the art of the hand that does the work but is it not art?

Bob

 

[Steveareno]

My 2 Cents

I agree with Mike Dubber, why can’t one just have fun engraving? I’m pencil challenged myself! Doing a transfer and learning to cut is fun. When I’m done I just throw it in the practice bucket. Brian Marshall once told me when you fill a 5 gallon bucket with practice plates you might be good enough to start engraving.

Face it there is only going to be a handful of great engravers each decade, so let the rest of us just have fun.

Steve

 

[vinyard knife]

dover books was a great resorce order up 4 of there software disks. thank you eric olson was a great place to find what i was looking for.

 

[Wes L.]

Chris you really hit it on the nail head. Everyone seems to want the instant gratification and sometimes forget what hard work and dedication will do . Thanks for reminding everyone. I think your response ought to be post once a year as a reminder to people. Thanks

 

[JJ Roberts]

Wes,Not everyone wants instant gratification,I like many others started engraving back in the early 70's with H&C and bruin working with these tools I don't think instant gratifcation was on our minds,if you would like to remind us old timer of anything it was the struggle I remember with just Meek's book,dedication and a dream to go by and no one looking over my shoulder I off and running.J.J.

 

[Sam]

It wasn't long after I'd started teaching that I realized that not every student wanted to devote his/her life to engraving like I had. Some simply wanted to make pretty designs on metal, not really caring where the designs came from. This art can be anything you make it, from paint-by-numbers to original world class masterpieces. I don't fault the weekend hobbyist who wants to transfer and engrave something for his grandchildren, and I'm no less impressed by a brilliant musician who performs the works of others.

 

[Marcus Hunt]

This is getting a bit frustrating for me. I am not talking about being able to draw a great work of art. I was talking about basic draughtsmanship so one has the ability to understand and layout a design. Transfers are fine if you have a flat surface to work on but convex, concave or cylindrical surfaces won't easily take a flat transfer. So, in order to get the most out of engraving one needs to learn how to design and lay out. Strangely enough, it's quite good fun to produce something of one's own. If you don't want to do so, that's fine too but you will limit yourself and never know what you are really capable of.

 

[atexascowboy2011]

This topic has hit on valid points for each side, Sam's - musicians not composing their own music and Marcus's - pride in being the author/designer of a work of art. As has been stated , one normally follows the path of studying a style you admire, tweaking it to fill your immediate needs while learning the skills necessary to complete your art , then developing your own signature to differentiate yourself from other's work. As two of the old spur makers have stated ,
" There is nothing new that hasn't been done in the past, just our own interpretation ."
Jeff

 

[Sam]

... Transfers are fine if you have a flat surface to work on but convex, concave or cylindrical surfaces won't easily take a flat transfer. So, in order to get the most out of engraving one needs to learn how to design and lay out. Strangely enough, it's quite good fun to produce something of one's own. If you don't want to do so, that's fine too but you will limit yourself and never know what you are really capable of.

Good point Marcus. Transferring on convex surfaces quickly reveals its shortcomings. I draw nearly everything I engrave and I get tremendous satisfaction from the art side engraving, and I feel sad for those who may never experience the deep sense of accomplishment of creating and engraving a quality design. But I have to tell myself that there are hundreds of hobbyists and engraving enthusiasts who aren't in it for the same reasons you and I are. I meet engravers and students who are slaves to acetone and laser patterns. Take that away and they're helpless. If they want to get really serious about engraving then a commitment to drawing is a must. Of course it depends on how one defines "really serious". I encourage every one of my students and engraver friends to DRAW. Some will, and others will happily transfer patterns, enjoy a bit of engraving for fun, and go about their merry way.

 

[Christian DeCamillis]

The problem with this thread is there is no right answer. It all depends on what one wants out of doing engraving.

If we were discussing fly fishing . It wouldn't matter whether you tied you own fly pattern or not. There is a great satisfaction when you do. Whether or not you know entomology will make no difference to your success as long as someone gives you the right pattern to use and you know how to cast and present the fly.

I think Sam's analogy is the best. You don't need to be able to writ music to play. I can't do either. But if I decid3ed I wanted to learn to play an instrument. I wouldn't start with learning to write and compose it. I would buy some sheet music.

As long as the person doing the engraving is happy at their level. It doesn't matter. If you want to become a professional engraver that will be a different story.

Chris

 

[Andrew Biggs]

If we were discussing fly fishing . It wouldn't matter whether you tied you own fly pattern or not. There is a great satisfaction when you do. Whether or not you know entomology will make no difference to your success as long as someone gives you the right pattern to use and you know how to cast and present the fly.

Man, fly fishers are the worst. WWIII damn near broke out when the Glo Bug and bead head nymph was introduced to New Zealand. Some thought it legitimate and others thought it was nothing short of shooting fish in a barrel

There's certainly nothing wrong with patterns from books etc. They are a great way to get cutting and get a sense of satisfaction that you have at least cut a nice design, even if it was someone else's. Most of us probably started that way. I hate to think how many times the Meeks patterns in his book have been cut as practice plates.

Where that comes to a very abrupt end is when you want to branch out and cut awkward shaped surfaces like knife bolsters etc etc. It's at this point that you really need to pick up the pencil and paper.

But at the end of the day it is each to his own and whatever you gain satisfaction from.

Cheers
Andrew