I'm not sure if I'm using too much flux, or not enough or what my deal is but it seems like my silver can turn an awful yellow/brown color after soldering a piece and I have a very hard time getting it back to the silver I know it was. I usually have to use pumice when this happens and it's never quite as shiny after that. Also, my line cuts are nearly impossible to clean afterwards. Any tips from the more experienced on this? Any advice/tips would be greatly appreciated!
Cleanup after soldering?
- Thread starter cowgirlup
- Start date
Have you tried dipping your whole piece in boric acid dissolved in denatured alcohol, burn off the alcohol, and then flux and solder? The boric acid film keeps that yellow away. Pickle it afterwards of course.
Haraga.com
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Pickle it after soldering. And engrave after soldering. .
TyG
Elite Cafe Member
Like the guys say, engrave after soldering. This allows you to polish and make sure the silver is at its best for the engraving. Sounds to me you have a fire scale problem if the silver is discolouring after heat.
i never used docs' method, but i have some "antiflux" that prevents this. the antiflux stuff never caused discoloration. i used a pickle called sparex.
silverchip
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Are you using soft solder or silver solder?
bronc
Elite Cafe Member
Flux and boric acid solutions can only stand so much heat and then they burn off and you start getting firescale. And if you get too much firescale, pickle wont do a very good job of removing it. So it sounds like you might be getting your silver too hot. What solder are you using? If you are using something higher than 560 (xtra easy), try backing off and using 560 till you get a feel for it and then work up to the higher temp solders. Remember, everyone went through the same problems as you when they were starting out. It's just part of the journey. Best of luck to you.
Stewart
Stewart
Haraga.com
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Show us a picture of your soldering. It may help. What are you building that can't be engraved last?
Chujybear
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
I thought at first it was simply oxidizer ion you were talking about.
If it is fire scale then one solution is to build a little chamber (like a box tipped on its side) out of fire brick or something- the solder in there. Your flame will quickly consume all the oxygen in there, and fires ale will be a thing of the past
If it is fire scale then one solution is to build a little chamber (like a box tipped on its side) out of fire brick or something- the solder in there. Your flame will quickly consume all the oxygen in there, and fires ale will be a thing of the past
mdengraver
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
After you solder and finish pickling your piece, it is important to neutralize the piece that was in the pickle by placing it in baking soda and water mixed together or else some of the acid may still be active on your piece. Finish it off afterwards by washing the whole piece in water. It is important to follow the pickling step and the neutralizing step after each solder attempt whether you succeeed or fail. It is very important that you solder with a clean surface for most effective soldering. Try not to handle the piece too much with the oil on your hands. I try to hold my piece on the edges when moving it or better yet use a clean set of tongs, etc. Any dirt can interfere with the flow of solder. As mentioned before dipping your whole piece in boric acid dissolved in denatured alcohol, burn off the alcohol, this will help to prevent firescale (discoloration to the metal). Try not to use an excess amount of flux when soldering or it will bubble up and interfere with your solder and cause it to move out of position. Remember a little solder goes a long way. Gradually heat the piece up so the flux dries out leaving an even film on your piece without disturbing the placement of your solder. Make sure your flame doesn't have too much oxygen in it or you will create firescale and dirty up your piece.
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lesholmes
Elite Cafe Member
Back in the 1950's the ladies I knew in Fairhope, Alabama, pickled their silver jewelry in sulfuric acid (Sparex) followed by nitric acid.
The nitric acid left a pure silver layer on the piece. I'm not recommending that you add yet another dangerous chemical to your shop, just adding a historical note to techniques for consideration.
Les Holmes
The nitric acid left a pure silver layer on the piece. I'm not recommending that you add yet another dangerous chemical to your shop, just adding a historical note to techniques for consideration.
Les Holmes
oiseau metal arts
Elite Cafe Member
i was having problems with some silver pieces and was shown thet i was overheating the pieces. too high heat and too long heated. bushy reducing flame did the trick, plus what mdengraver said.
i was getting ehat looked like oxidation that wouldnt polish off, but under a scope was something that went deeper than just firescale.
i was getting ehat looked like oxidation that wouldnt polish off, but under a scope was something that went deeper than just firescale.
mdengraver
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
If your overheating the silver like you said and the color went deeper than firescale there's a good chance your pulled to the surface some of the copper content of the silver to the surface leaving a thin layer of copper that had to be removed.
Here's an explanation of what I think happened when you heated up the sterling silver:
Removing the copper from the outside layer of the sterling silver allows it to adhere to the fine silver. This is called depletion gilding. The process essentially brings the copper to the surface of the metal by heating the sterling silver with a torch. The metal is then cleaned in pickling solution. The pickling solution absorbs the copper from the surface of the metal. This is why the pickling solution turns blue over time. This process is completed over and over until the sterling silver no longer turns black when heated.
Here's an explanation of what I think happened when you heated up the sterling silver:
Removing the copper from the outside layer of the sterling silver allows it to adhere to the fine silver. This is called depletion gilding. The process essentially brings the copper to the surface of the metal by heating the sterling silver with a torch. The metal is then cleaned in pickling solution. The pickling solution absorbs the copper from the surface of the metal. This is why the pickling solution turns blue over time. This process is completed over and over until the sterling silver no longer turns black when heated.
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This is all very good advice! Thank you for taking the time to post for me. I'm using a 400 degree nickle/silver solder that another silversmith told me to use. I've never been very pleased with it but that's all the advice I had other than the Jeremiah Watt videos and he's using a B tank and I'm sure that's miles beyond me at this point! (I'm using a plumber's torch) It all sounds very silly, but I'm embarrassed to admit that I have no idea what the order of soldering/doming/engraving is. I've just been engraving first, then banging my head against the wall. Do you mean to tell me I should be engraving already domed pieces? I thought that was done after the engraving. Sometimes, there are times when I would need to solder hardware after I domed the piece so it doesn't move around (such as a bridle loop). Very. Confused. lol
rodsta
Elite Cafe Member
Yes Sheena you should be engraving after the doming and assembly. If you do the doming after the engraving you are very likely to distort the engraving. Usually after making cuff bracelets I do the bending after engraving but then it's not as extreme as a dome and I'm very careful with how it is being bent. Hope this helps.
Rod
Rod
Haraga.com
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
It would be nice if you could get to someones shop to be able to see what tools are used and the manufacturing steps. Do what you can to get it done. It will make your life better. I know a guy that manufactured bass ackward for a while and now he is starting to manufacture the proper way and he is quite proud of his accomplishments. Bottom line keep asking and sooner or later you will get the proper answers.
silverchip
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Wish I could help,I am going to teach some workshops this upcoming year.Maybe you could get into one of those.I think you get miles ahead if you can!!!!!
I also have trouble soldering when I get the solder stuck to one part, but not the silver or vise versa. Does that indicate something?
It sure is a good thing I asked all of this! Also, a good thing I don't embarrass easily! Well, engraving pieces that aren't flat should be a fun new trial.
Thank you everyone for your help.
::facepalm::
It sure is a good thing I asked all of this! Also, a good thing I don't embarrass easily! Well, engraving pieces that aren't flat should be a fun new trial.
Thank you everyone for your help. ::facepalm::
Brian Marshall
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Whoa! 400 degrees?
400 degrees is NOT silver solder. It is "silver bearing" solder. A tiny percentage of silver, usually the majority of the alloy being low temp melting point base metals like tin.
I have never heard of a "nickel silver" solder alloy. There is a high nickel alloy brazing/welding rod but it too is way higher than 400 degrees.
Please find whatever documentation came with what you are using and post it so we can see it.
I suspect this may be your problem...
Brian
Also you might add roughly where you are on the planet to your profile. You may be right next door to someone who can help.
400 degrees is NOT silver solder. It is "silver bearing" solder. A tiny percentage of silver, usually the majority of the alloy being low temp melting point base metals like tin.
I have never heard of a "nickel silver" solder alloy. There is a high nickel alloy brazing/welding rod but it too is way higher than 400 degrees.
Please find whatever documentation came with what you are using and post it so we can see it.
I suspect this may be your problem...
Brian
Also you might add roughly where you are on the planet to your profile. You may be right next door to someone who can help.
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