Jim Sackett
Elite Cafe Member
Thank you Jbardon and Andrew for the very informative and interesting thread. Jbardon your drawing is very good.
Jim
Jim
Critique Request Buck knife scroll design
- Thread starter Jbardon
- Start date
Andrew Biggs
Moderator
Hi Jason
Great!!
The large scroll on the right....where it converges with the next scroll needs a bit of tweeking but you can do that in the next step.
The next step...................
We now have quite large open areas between each scroll. There are a lot of ways to fill these areas and we will go for the easiest and most simple.
A big mistake is that often people try to bang in large leaf patterns which dosn't look right. If you go back to your very first drawing that you posted........then you can see that this is what you tried to do.
So what we have to do is refine those areas and break them down into smaller and more managable areas to fill in with leaves. We do this by drawing in secondary scrolls that are smaller than the first but still will help connect the whole design.
These scrolls will start in the same place, curl around and connect with the head of the scroll in front of it.........and touch the borders.
The origin point will be treated almost the same. The secondary scroll will come out of the point of origin in a nice curve and curl around touching the head of the larger scroll.
You will find that in doing this that you may have to start tweeking your primary scrolls slightly. For instance the point of origin may need to be made a bit smaller or some of the curves altered slightly..........basically it is a refining process that starts working on two levels and juggling everything till lit looks pleasing to the eye.
At this stage don't try anything fancy like interweaving or overlapping scrolls. Learn to draw simple designs first........over a period of time your designs will naturally start getting a bit more complicated as you start experimenting and understanding the relashionship between the various design elements.
Cheers
Andrew
Great!!
The large scroll on the right....where it converges with the next scroll needs a bit of tweeking but you can do that in the next step.
The next step...................
We now have quite large open areas between each scroll. There are a lot of ways to fill these areas and we will go for the easiest and most simple.
A big mistake is that often people try to bang in large leaf patterns which dosn't look right. If you go back to your very first drawing that you posted........then you can see that this is what you tried to do.
So what we have to do is refine those areas and break them down into smaller and more managable areas to fill in with leaves. We do this by drawing in secondary scrolls that are smaller than the first but still will help connect the whole design.
These scrolls will start in the same place, curl around and connect with the head of the scroll in front of it.........and touch the borders.
The origin point will be treated almost the same. The secondary scroll will come out of the point of origin in a nice curve and curl around touching the head of the larger scroll.
You will find that in doing this that you may have to start tweeking your primary scrolls slightly. For instance the point of origin may need to be made a bit smaller or some of the curves altered slightly..........basically it is a refining process that starts working on two levels and juggling everything till lit looks pleasing to the eye.
At this stage don't try anything fancy like interweaving or overlapping scrolls. Learn to draw simple designs first........over a period of time your designs will naturally start getting a bit more complicated as you start experimenting and understanding the relashionship between the various design elements.
Cheers
Andrew
Jbardon
Member
Like this?
Andrew Biggs
Moderator
Yip..............like that
i'm going to chip in here. i feel you should back away from the edges all the way around. i think you're way too close to the edge of the scales.
Bunic
Elite Cafe Member
Jason,
Nice layout. I'm very new and Ron P. is all over me for scrolls that are not round enough. It looks to me like your originating scroll is quite flat on the bottom, esp. compared to the following scrolls. Just my newbie thoughts. Looking forward to the finished drawing...
Mike
Nice layout. I'm very new and Ron P. is all over me for scrolls that are not round enough. It looks to me like your originating scroll is quite flat on the bottom, esp. compared to the following scrolls. Just my newbie thoughts. Looking forward to the finished drawing...
Mike
Andrew Biggs
Moderator
Hi Jason
All you need to do now is fill in the last remaining secondary scroll from the origin point and then we will be on our way to the next step.
This may require making that small scroll even smaller and a bit of playing around with.
Cheers
Andrew
All you need to do now is fill in the last remaining secondary scroll from the origin point and then we will be on our way to the next step.
This may require making that small scroll even smaller and a bit of playing around with.
Cheers
Andrew
CJ Tate
Elite Cafe Member
Great thread - I am learning along with you.
Jbardon
Member
I'm a little confused about the last secondary scroll, I did just a quick scroll in place to see if I'm on the right track, should it be something like this? Or should it be emerging from the same point as the origin scroll, or maybe scrolling the other direction?
Thanks,
Jason
Thanks,
Jason
Andrew Biggs
Moderator
Hi Jason
Don't make it go the other way!!
Yes, the scroll should originate from exactley the same point of origin as the main scroll and make a big and deep sweeping curve........more than you have at the moment.
This is where you may have to make it (point of origin) slightly smaller to accommodate it.
Keep playing with it till it looks exactley right or the best you can do.
This is part of the refining that you will have to do from now on. There are other areas in the scrolls that will also need refining but that will become a bit more obvious later on.
Cheers
Andrew
Don't make it go the other way!!
Yes, the scroll should originate from exactley the same point of origin as the main scroll and make a big and deep sweeping curve........more than you have at the moment.
This is where you may have to make it (point of origin) slightly smaller to accommodate it.
Keep playing with it till it looks exactley right or the best you can do.
This is part of the refining that you will have to do from now on. There are other areas in the scrolls that will also need refining but that will become a bit more obvious later on.
Cheers
Andrew
Jbardon
Member
Ok I smoothed out that scroll and made the origin smaller, I see a few areas that I need to smooth the lines of the main scrolls mainly the one on the left, but besides that am i ready for leaves?
Andrew Biggs
Moderator
Hi jason
Just about there. The last scroll you have added........make it deeper so that sweeping line is pulled down........and closer to the main scroll line. It will make that secondary scroll a bit bigger but that is OK
The reason for this that you will have a very hard time filling that area between the two lines with leaves...........before you rub it out and alter it, just lightly draw in some leaves and you will see what I mean. They will have to be very long and overextended which will look a bit funny on this particular design.
Cheers
Andrew
Just about there. The last scroll you have added........make it deeper so that sweeping line is pulled down........and closer to the main scroll line. It will make that secondary scroll a bit bigger but that is OK
The reason for this that you will have a very hard time filling that area between the two lines with leaves...........before you rub it out and alter it, just lightly draw in some leaves and you will see what I mean. They will have to be very long and overextended which will look a bit funny on this particular design.
Cheers
Andrew
rod
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
This thread is the Forum at its most valuable!
Thank you all...
Rod
Thank you all...
Rod
Jbardon
Member
I moved the secondary origin scroll around a bit and filled in some leaves:banana:, I went with a lot simpler leaves than my initial design. After looking at it a while I think that my consistency of leaf placement in the righthand scrolls may need some work? I cant wait to hear everyone's thoughts and suggestions.
Thanks,
Jason
Thanks,
Jason
docmike
Member
Thanks guys, this is a great thread, I have learned a lot. I'm starting a knife similar to this and this has helped a lot. Thanks again.
Mike
Mike
theresamarieus
Member
and the suspense builds....
I can't wait to see how you work this one out Jason. I have never figured out the issue with the double scroll. You are going to understand this so much better when you are finished. The rest of us are cheering for you because this is a great instructional tool. When you are done we will also understand.
Mr. Andrew Biggs- you are doing a great job explaining how scrolls work and encouraging Jason through these steps. I am excited to see the final result because your scroll work is so original and distinctive. I have wondered how you brought so much individuality into your designs and still followed the rules. Thank you for taking the time to show how this works.
You are both building a great tutorial.
I can't wait to see how you work this one out Jason. I have never figured out the issue with the double scroll. You are going to understand this so much better when you are finished. The rest of us are cheering for you because this is a great instructional tool. When you are done we will also understand.
Mr. Andrew Biggs- you are doing a great job explaining how scrolls work and encouraging Jason through these steps. I am excited to see the final result because your scroll work is so original and distinctive. I have wondered how you brought so much individuality into your designs and still followed the rules. Thank you for taking the time to show how this works.
You are both building a great tutorial.
Andrew Biggs
Moderator
Hi Jason
Looks great!!
You have a lot of good things happening in there. I like the way you have the leaves all pointing toward the vortex of the scroll head and that they are of a consistent size. You are definitely headed in the right direction and obviously have been studying hard.
But.....................We have some refining to do
The last secondary scroll that you drew in is a little flat as it sweeps around and needs some slight adjustment.
That same scroll needs a little more head on it so it sweeps around and under a bit more.
All leaves and tendrils near a border need to touch the border like the scrolls.
The tendrils (the leaves with round bit sticking out) need to be rounder. At the moment they are a bit too much oval in shape.
The far left secondary scroll is a bit thick looking at the head and needs to be slightly thinner.
The leaf between the last two left hand scrolls doesn't work the way it is.........maybe place a similar leaf/tendril like you have between the first two scrolls on the right.
Where the base of the leaves converge into the scroll backbone. These areas need to be slightly thicker. When you remove the background they will look too thin and it doesn't leave you much room for shading. A way to do this is before you draw your leaves..........very lightly pencil in a guideline around the inside of the scroll backbone. This will give you a consistent converging point and allow you to judge how thick it should be..........later on you will probably not bother with it, but it is a good idea when you are starting out.
That is enough for now and that gives you plenty to work on. This is all part of the refining process.
When you have adjusted all of that I want to talk to you about your leaf structure............. There are a few things in there that are not obvious at the moment but when you come to the shading will start having an effect on how the leaf will finally look. With all of this one thing effects the other and the idea is to try and think forward a bit.
Cheers
Andrew
Looks great!!
You have a lot of good things happening in there. I like the way you have the leaves all pointing toward the vortex of the scroll head and that they are of a consistent size. You are definitely headed in the right direction and obviously have been studying hard.
But.....................We have some refining to do
The last secondary scroll that you drew in is a little flat as it sweeps around and needs some slight adjustment.
That same scroll needs a little more head on it so it sweeps around and under a bit more.
All leaves and tendrils near a border need to touch the border like the scrolls.
The tendrils (the leaves with round bit sticking out) need to be rounder. At the moment they are a bit too much oval in shape.
The far left secondary scroll is a bit thick looking at the head and needs to be slightly thinner.
The leaf between the last two left hand scrolls doesn't work the way it is.........maybe place a similar leaf/tendril like you have between the first two scrolls on the right.
Where the base of the leaves converge into the scroll backbone. These areas need to be slightly thicker. When you remove the background they will look too thin and it doesn't leave you much room for shading. A way to do this is before you draw your leaves..........very lightly pencil in a guideline around the inside of the scroll backbone. This will give you a consistent converging point and allow you to judge how thick it should be..........later on you will probably not bother with it, but it is a good idea when you are starting out.
That is enough for now and that gives you plenty to work on. This is all part of the refining process.
When you have adjusted all of that I want to talk to you about your leaf structure............. There are a few things in there that are not obvious at the moment but when you come to the shading will start having an effect on how the leaf will finally look. With all of this one thing effects the other and the idea is to try and think forward a bit.
Cheers
Andrew
Andrew Biggs
Moderator
Hi Theresa
It's all simple enough once you start getting your head around how one thing connects to the next.............. and the effect that they start having on one another..............then all you have to do is "bend it" to your will.
The scroll provides your basic structure or the medium to carry the rest of the design...............once you have your basic structure in place it's just a matter of filling it in. But if your basic structure is wrong, then everything else becomes wrong.
Just like building a house. You start with the plan (canvas), then build the frame (Scroll) and if the frame is out of whack.............then the rooms (leaves) go out of shape as well............so one thing has an effect on another.
If you advance that theory a bit further............you can then fill the scrolls with anything that you like. We use leaves.
But, in theory you could also replace the leaves with coke cans, bananas, flowers, fish, birds or faces and grotesques or anything else that you like. All you have to do is bend them so that they fit the medium (scroll) and remain recognizable for what they are.
Try it................and you might be surprised at the results
Cheers
Andrew
It's all simple enough once you start getting your head around how one thing connects to the next.............. and the effect that they start having on one another..............then all you have to do is "bend it" to your will.
The scroll provides your basic structure or the medium to carry the rest of the design...............once you have your basic structure in place it's just a matter of filling it in. But if your basic structure is wrong, then everything else becomes wrong.
Just like building a house. You start with the plan (canvas), then build the frame (Scroll) and if the frame is out of whack.............then the rooms (leaves) go out of shape as well............so one thing has an effect on another.
If you advance that theory a bit further............you can then fill the scrolls with anything that you like. We use leaves.
But, in theory you could also replace the leaves with coke cans, bananas, flowers, fish, birds or faces and grotesques or anything else that you like. All you have to do is bend them so that they fit the medium (scroll) and remain recognizable for what they are.
Try it................and you might be surprised at the results
Cheers
Andrew
longranger
Member
Bravo to Mr. Biggs,
Some reintorduction to fundamentals:beat up: is always good ,Jbardon you have the ability to make this anyhthing you want.
Have you used a graver yet or getting your feet wet with drawing ? I agree this is the forum at it's best.
Some reintorduction to fundamentals:beat up: is always good ,Jbardon you have the ability to make this anyhthing you want.
Have you used a graver yet or getting your feet wet with drawing ? I agree this is the forum at it's best.
Jbardon
Member
Andrew,
Do I need to watch the scroll backbone width at the red line (Marked in the second scroll) or do I need to be careful of the blue line, or both?
LongRanger,
Ive been engraving off and on for about two years after taking a few classes but most so far has been practice plates, and projects with royalty free designs like you find in the Dover books or non scroll based designs that i have drawn. I find scroll work a little intimidating so it has taken me quite a while to get my feet wet with it, though i have done a lot of reading and found both of Ron Smith's books very helpful.
Jason
Do I need to watch the scroll backbone width at the red line (Marked in the second scroll) or do I need to be careful of the blue line, or both?
LongRanger,
Ive been engraving off and on for about two years after taking a few classes but most so far has been practice plates, and projects with royalty free designs like you find in the Dover books or non scroll based designs that i have drawn. I find scroll work a little intimidating so it has taken me quite a while to get my feet wet with it, though i have done a lot of reading and found both of Ron Smith's books very helpful.
Jason
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