Jared Eason
Elite Cafe Member
No attitude Bob. Just wondering how others approached the issue. Being u brought it up thought you could help.
Critique Request basic scroll attempt ( vol.2)
- Thread starter Jared Eason
- Start date
Jared Eason
Elite Cafe Member
Kind of looking for proof about what I think I learned.
Arnaud[/QUOTE]
That being said....is what I'm looking for..
Arnaud[/QUOTE]
That being said....is what I'm looking for..
Jared Eason
Elite Cafe Member
Also when I say second attempt at basic scroll...that means its the second one I completed without scrapping it. I doodle every chance I get trying different leaves. Etc. Its my final form I need (approved) per say.
Red Green
Elite Cafe Member
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2011
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- 391
Jared, you asked and others and I have offered advice and you say you think it would be best to continue to follow your original plan. As I said I will leave that post as stated, read the original and this thread again. I'm fairly certain others will continue to try to help if you intend to persist on this endeavor as you have stated.
As I have said I have little to offer you when it comes to bad examples, there are too many ways to make a bad scroll to eliminate them all. You need to start with a correct model, a cube will teach you little of a sphere no matter how many cubes you make it will not be a sphere. There are many paths that take one to Oz, some take longer than others, you want to blaze your own when you have no idea which way to go, why?
Bob
As I have said I have little to offer you when it comes to bad examples, there are too many ways to make a bad scroll to eliminate them all. You need to start with a correct model, a cube will teach you little of a sphere no matter how many cubes you make it will not be a sphere. There are many paths that take one to Oz, some take longer than others, you want to blaze your own when you have no idea which way to go, why?
Bob
Jared Eason
Elite Cafe Member
I don't think I'm trying to blaze my own trail. I know I have a tendency to jump the gun but am learning to slow down. Did I not take the advise from the other post to make this scroll. So I need work on my leaves . It was pointed out . Nice, that's what I needed to know it was explained why I should form them different. Now I know and can build on that. If by wanting to cut my own work is blazing new trails then maybe its time some others need to step off the path from time to time. Sams DVD is great and showed a lot but ( I ) struggle with wanting to jump to the hard stuff. I'm not trying to found rude here but . OK I get I need a plan , I have one . Just wanted help forming the best damn scrolls I could with the help of others. Its the hard critiques that make me want to do better. So I say blast away . If you cannot understand this , then I'm sorry.
Red Green
Elite Cafe Member
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As I have said I think you have what it takes, you should have the capacity to find your way, how soon is up to you, hopefully you will have the tenacity to outlast your inflexibility. It is not a matter of me not understanding, I'm telling you it will serve little to no purpose. Critique only works for nuance, a train wreck has no nuance, an intended scroll that is not a scroll but a conglomeration of disparate elements cannot be critiqued nor will it teach you anything. If you insist on your current plan at least use a proper model not some random scroll idea.
Bob
Bob
Dale Hatfield
Elite Cafe Member
Jared
We are both in the same boat here. Well I might have half a length on ya in the race to figure this out. . I have watched Sams DVD many times. I too want to get to the hard stuff. However I figured out just as you are now. That you are working on the hard stuff.
Get a plan on how your going to make it work out. Their are 3 forums each with help on drawing and engraving.
The simple scroll isn't as simple as it looks. Until you break it down into parts and learn How to draw each part.
I have also drawn same stuff that looked just like yours but then engraved it .Thought it was good I drew it so I cut it. End result some crap on a good piece of sterling silver.
Ray has a good lesson as well on Steve's forum . Chris has some great stuff on his as well. Sam has plenty here as well .
We are both in the same boat here. Well I might have half a length on ya in the race to figure this out. . I have watched Sams DVD many times. I too want to get to the hard stuff. However I figured out just as you are now. That you are working on the hard stuff.
Get a plan on how your going to make it work out. Their are 3 forums each with help on drawing and engraving.
The simple scroll isn't as simple as it looks. Until you break it down into parts and learn How to draw each part.
I have also drawn same stuff that looked just like yours but then engraved it .Thought it was good I drew it so I cut it. End result some crap on a good piece of sterling silver.
Ray has a good lesson as well on Steve's forum . Chris has some great stuff on his as well. Sam has plenty here as well .
Red Green
Elite Cafe Member
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2011
- Messages
- 391
OK maybe I'm just being an old hard... try this link: http://www.engraverscafe.com/showthread.php?11416-Scroll-cutting-amp-shading-practice-1&highlight=scroll+practice : it's a shading and cutting practice thread by Sam, draw it out instead of using the computer to print it. The outline is just that but it must have the capacity to offer the shading and shaping inside them to be something other than lines. The backbone is intended to give shape and flow to the overall design for it to end up a scroll all these elements and background must be convergent and harmonize.
Bob
Bob
Andrew Biggs
Moderator
Bob………as a moderator on this forum I can't stand by and read this nonsense anymore. It is utterly pointless and meaningless. Jared is new to the forum and trying to get a handle on some basic engraving and design so he can get some direction. Your comments are utterly unhelpful and bordering on troll like behaviour.
Perhaps it would be helpful for you to post some of your work and/or drawings so we can see where you are coming from.
One word of advise I would give to anyone about learning to engrave.........always look at the persons work that is giving the advise. That will tell you everything you need to know about their advise.
Cheers
Andrew
tundratrekers@mtaonline.n
Elite Cafe Member
Jared,
All have given the advice to cut straight lines.
Do it.
Til straight,and of even width and depth.
Surely you have not exhausted this exercise already.
Until you can do this,all other cutting is basically futile.
You are going to develop bad habits by trying to advance to fast.
You will get frustrated,and ,chances are,will quit.
Or ,you will EVENTUALLY persevere and over come,but will battle forever trying to undo all the bad habits you have ingrained into your mind and muscle memory.
Your trying to skip steps that every other engraver learned were necessary to build an strong ,solid control of the tools.
Your trying to avoid the learning curve all together.
No matter how much info is given you, it will do you no good until you know the BASICS.
Lets use the recent post asking about an 1/2" chisel.
This man is already an engraver,but Skipped the step of learning to make his own gravers when needed.
Heck,I will say that Besides drawing,the most important aspect of the art is an sharp burin.
I cant believe you mastered this part,yet either.
Every one wants to cut scrolls,but cutting bad scrolls is only going to teach you how to cut bad scrolls.
Forget all your dreams of overnight fame.
Forget about amassing an arsenal of tools.
Get an square chisel and square burin/push tool.
Bench stones and an leather pad or vise.
Until you can use this tool,the square,you have no use for any others.
Until you can sharpen the tool,there is NO use in trying to cut with it,like trying to use an broken pencil.
So, make it easy for others to help you.
All who have replied are good engravers,take their advice.
All the answers to all your questions will make no sense to you until you can put them in context that you understand.
We have ALL had the initial enthusiasm you display.
These guys are telling you the BEST,FASTEST, way to go.
Use you tube,and engraverstudio.com,watch the tutorials.
Try them,then ask questions.
Look on Lindsays forum.
Also,you might like The Iron Brush forum,Ford Hallum.
God Bless,
Michael
P.S. Have you read/Own James Meeks , The Art Of Engraving.
All of your questions are answered there,get from the library if needed.
All have given the advice to cut straight lines.
Do it.
Til straight,and of even width and depth.
Surely you have not exhausted this exercise already.
Until you can do this,all other cutting is basically futile.
You are going to develop bad habits by trying to advance to fast.
You will get frustrated,and ,chances are,will quit.
Or ,you will EVENTUALLY persevere and over come,but will battle forever trying to undo all the bad habits you have ingrained into your mind and muscle memory.
Your trying to skip steps that every other engraver learned were necessary to build an strong ,solid control of the tools.
Your trying to avoid the learning curve all together.
No matter how much info is given you, it will do you no good until you know the BASICS.
Lets use the recent post asking about an 1/2" chisel.
This man is already an engraver,but Skipped the step of learning to make his own gravers when needed.
Heck,I will say that Besides drawing,the most important aspect of the art is an sharp burin.
I cant believe you mastered this part,yet either.
Every one wants to cut scrolls,but cutting bad scrolls is only going to teach you how to cut bad scrolls.
Forget all your dreams of overnight fame.
Forget about amassing an arsenal of tools.
Get an square chisel and square burin/push tool.
Bench stones and an leather pad or vise.
Until you can use this tool,the square,you have no use for any others.
Until you can sharpen the tool,there is NO use in trying to cut with it,like trying to use an broken pencil.
So, make it easy for others to help you.
All who have replied are good engravers,take their advice.
All the answers to all your questions will make no sense to you until you can put them in context that you understand.
We have ALL had the initial enthusiasm you display.
These guys are telling you the BEST,FASTEST, way to go.
Use you tube,and engraverstudio.com,watch the tutorials.
Try them,then ask questions.
Look on Lindsays forum.
Also,you might like The Iron Brush forum,Ford Hallum.
God Bless,
Michael
P.S. Have you read/Own James Meeks , The Art Of Engraving.
All of your questions are answered there,get from the library if needed.
Red Green
Elite Cafe Member
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2011
- Messages
- 391
I see, one more time the challenge, prove I have the right to an opinion, this time I will decline, I don't feel I need to prove anything to you. As you are a moderator your opinion has weight here I will yield, I will no longer 'troll' as you say.
Jared, I have had several very good instructors. They all seem to say the same thing, and it works...
Find pictures of engraving you like and draw them for yourself. Compare your drawing to the original. How is yours different? What parts make you like it?
What shading do you like? What leaf structure do you gravitate towards?
Do this and you will get better...
And oh yeah, listen to the old farts on the forum. Take what is useful and make it your own. Flush the rest!
Find pictures of engraving you like and draw them for yourself. Compare your drawing to the original. How is yours different? What parts make you like it?
What shading do you like? What leaf structure do you gravitate towards?
Do this and you will get better...
And oh yeah, listen to the old farts on the forum. Take what is useful and make it your own. Flush the rest!
Christian DeCamillis
Elite Cafe Member
Jared,
The best way to learn to draw and understand ornamental scroll in my opinion is to start by only drawing it's infrastructure. The backbones ONLY . Forget about the leaf structures they aren't important at this point. They are just fill in. Like anything that you build it has to have a framework before the structure can be added.
I would recommend that you draw and learn how to connect the backbones in a way that allows them to flow from one in other effortlessly. Pay attention to the measure . In other words don't have one large backbone and then a lot of small ones coming off of it. Instead try to make them size down gradually.
Next you have to fill a space . Draw several outline shapes and fill it in with the backbones as I described. Make sure it has a point of origin. Take the same outlines and try different points of origin and combinations of how the backbones flow.
As you look at others scrolls try to only see the infrastructure as I described It's there sometimes difficult to see with complex leaf structures. I guarantee that if it is a pleasing design it has the proper infrastructure. After doing this until you get it right . The leaves will be so easy to add you won't believe it.
Most beginners tend to get caught up in all the fancy leaves and don't even see the underlying structure.
Hope this helps.
Chris
The best way to learn to draw and understand ornamental scroll in my opinion is to start by only drawing it's infrastructure. The backbones ONLY . Forget about the leaf structures they aren't important at this point. They are just fill in. Like anything that you build it has to have a framework before the structure can be added.
I would recommend that you draw and learn how to connect the backbones in a way that allows them to flow from one in other effortlessly. Pay attention to the measure . In other words don't have one large backbone and then a lot of small ones coming off of it. Instead try to make them size down gradually.
Next you have to fill a space . Draw several outline shapes and fill it in with the backbones as I described. Make sure it has a point of origin. Take the same outlines and try different points of origin and combinations of how the backbones flow.
As you look at others scrolls try to only see the infrastructure as I described It's there sometimes difficult to see with complex leaf structures. I guarantee that if it is a pleasing design it has the proper infrastructure. After doing this until you get it right . The leaves will be so easy to add you won't believe it.
Most beginners tend to get caught up in all the fancy leaves and don't even see the underlying structure.
Hope this helps.
Chris
Jared Eason
Elite Cafe Member
Wow OK let's see if I can address everyone. I do have Meeks book, I read it when I didn't know anything about engraving,(confusing) I am rereading it now an understanding it better. As must be obvious I am currently fighting my old bad habits . This is a challenge. I needed direction an y'all gave it to me. Leaves, yes I do get frustrated trying to make them nice looking, now after ysll have given me the right course of action I can come concentrate on a correctly structured scroll. I aim to post my next results but this time it will be a lil while before I do. , when I have drawn one I think is very good . Thanks all for the help. I do want to say I am sorry for being hard heard , its just hard for someone like myself to completely give in ( know it all ) some may say..I also am still working on graver geometry and cutting lines. Thanks again for all the hard work you all put in helping me and others .
I think I have addressed everyone..
I think I have addressed everyone..
diandwill
Elite Cafe Member
Before I knew anything, I read Meeks book. It WAS a world changer, the first book sharing the secrets of engraving. Unfortunately, for me, it read..."Draw these lines, then draw these circles, now cut these elaborate scrolls"! It wasn't until I had training that it made any sense. There are so many newer books, DVD's, videos etc., that have a more complete understanding and progression, from the basic to the finished, that in my opinion, they have largely supplanted Meeks book. It is still a great book and wonderful reference, but for me, is largely a historical refence book.
Just keep drawing and cutting, listen to the best of the people here, in this forum, and fit it into what you are trying to do. As was said, look at the works of your mentors, critics etc., and emulate the ones whose work you admire the most!
Just keep drawing and cutting, listen to the best of the people here, in this forum, and fit it into what you are trying to do. As was said, look at the works of your mentors, critics etc., and emulate the ones whose work you admire the most!
Jared Eason
Elite Cafe Member
I will do just that. I have been looking this morning at some scroll of Sam's . I did as suggested and did my best to break it down into just the backbone structure. It made alot more sense and wasn't as intimidating. Still a lil confusing. But much more easy to understand. There are so many I admire. Its hard to pic one to emulate but I will pick a couple to draw and compare .
Jared Eason
Elite Cafe Member
Do y'all think it would help or hurt me to take some tracing paper and follow the lines to get a feel and in a sense get some muscle memory of how the lines and leaves work together ?
The tracing would likely help to start with. When I started many years ago I picked a scroll style I really liked and stuck with that until I could draw it and cut it reasonably well. This taught me the basic concepts which do relate to other forms and were easily transfered to other forms. By choosing a style you really like you will be able to stick with it longer without tiring of it, get more enjoyment from your progress, and maybe progress faster. Trying to learn other styles at the same time may just confuse what you are trying to do. Worked with me anyway.
Jared, before we get too crazy with all this, try and simplify your approach to scrolls. Forget about the fancy stuff for now. The old adage "you can't see the forest for the trees" is true for engraving. The advice here from some of the best professional engravers in the business is absolutely true...look at the backbone of a design first. I know it is confusing at first, and we all are impatient, but it helps to slow down and control our enthusiasm a little. When I was racing, I often went faster when I slowed it down some. Sounds crazy, but it worked.
My first instructor, via snail mail, had me cut plate after plate of nothing but straight lines. After a while, I graduated to curved lines. I look at those plates now and wonder how I ever got beyond pencil and paper! Practice, practice and practice some more on proper sharpening of your graver and the proper technique of cutting. A properly sharpened graver coupled with the proper "angles of attack" and pressure will feel "right" and will feel smooth, with no added pressure to have it cut correctly. A lot of things will become automatic with practice, but we must work at it diligently. Mature engravers are constantly observing and correcting their geometry and technique subconsciously which an only be learned by many hours and years of work. It is a form of muscle control, but more importantly, it is mind control, the ability to use your observational skills to maneuver your intricate muscle movements.
I have gone on too long on some of this stuff, but the main idea is to slow down, simplify your approach and practice the basics until you're sick of them. Good luck, and I'm looking forward to watching you improve.
Bill
My first instructor, via snail mail, had me cut plate after plate of nothing but straight lines. After a while, I graduated to curved lines. I look at those plates now and wonder how I ever got beyond pencil and paper! Practice, practice and practice some more on proper sharpening of your graver and the proper technique of cutting. A properly sharpened graver coupled with the proper "angles of attack" and pressure will feel "right" and will feel smooth, with no added pressure to have it cut correctly. A lot of things will become automatic with practice, but we must work at it diligently. Mature engravers are constantly observing and correcting their geometry and technique subconsciously which an only be learned by many hours and years of work. It is a form of muscle control, but more importantly, it is mind control, the ability to use your observational skills to maneuver your intricate muscle movements.
I have gone on too long on some of this stuff, but the main idea is to slow down, simplify your approach and practice the basics until you're sick of them. Good luck, and I'm looking forward to watching you improve.
Bill
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