KSnyder
Elite Cafe Member
Crockett would have been using an FN 240.:biggrin: engraved of course.
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Art, REALLY!
- Thread starter tundratrekers@mtaonline.n
- Start date
BrianPowley
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Since I urged Mike to start this thread, I guess I'll weigh in:
IMHO, art is when you decide it is art. For the life of me, I can't find "art" in anything Andy Warhol signed his name to, however, there are a multitude that think otherwise and are willing to fork over huge amounts of cash for it. Go figure.
I happen to love Catharine Simpson, Sandra Kuck and Dave Barnhouse, yet many of you might not know who they are. Sorry for your loss.
I find it amazing that when I spend an entire weekday laying out script lettering with a pencil, it looks exactly like the layout that took mere minutes to perform with a pantograph. (Yes folks, I layout most of my lettering with a pantograph and hand cut it.)
I've had 'em tell me that if you ain't using "hammer & chisel" you ain't a real engraver. Suit yourself.............Whatever.........
I might not be a real engraving artist according to some of you, but I'll tell ya what----there's a whole lotta folks out there wanting to talk to me!
And here's the best part about why I love my job: "They pay me in gold for something I would do for free."
IMHO, art is when you decide it is art. For the life of me, I can't find "art" in anything Andy Warhol signed his name to, however, there are a multitude that think otherwise and are willing to fork over huge amounts of cash for it. Go figure.
I happen to love Catharine Simpson, Sandra Kuck and Dave Barnhouse, yet many of you might not know who they are. Sorry for your loss.
I find it amazing that when I spend an entire weekday laying out script lettering with a pencil, it looks exactly like the layout that took mere minutes to perform with a pantograph. (Yes folks, I layout most of my lettering with a pantograph and hand cut it.)
I've had 'em tell me that if you ain't using "hammer & chisel" you ain't a real engraver. Suit yourself.............Whatever.........
I might not be a real engraving artist according to some of you, but I'll tell ya what----there's a whole lotta folks out there wanting to talk to me!
And here's the best part about why I love my job: "They pay me in gold for something I would do for free."
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silverchip
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
I guess I have a little bit of a definition for "Art". Here goes,"Art is the end result of a great craftsman's effort". It doesn't matter what it is but how it got to be art in the first place. My $.02. 
:hammer:
:banana::bow::banana::banana:
:hammer::banana::bow::banana::banana:Dulltool
Elite Cafe Member
ART........ is the name of a guy I have coffee with when I go to Starbucks.
JAT
Member
Ok here's my philosophy. I was trained in art by a classically trained printmaker from a well known art academy. We have had many discussions about this very subject. Art, in our opinion, is when you create something new with artistic methods. A craft relies on using known methods to create something that has already been done before. If you take a craft and you make it your own, so to speak, you have created a form of art in one way or another. Plagiarism is a direct copy of something with no credit given to the artist. Ormsby used the painting as a reference, just as we use photographs, but the end result was a 3 dimensional sculpture in metal. To make a copy of that painting he would have had to paint it, not engrave it. In essence he created something new that never before existed. I can draw anything I engrave and that is usually how my engravings start out. But what do you say to someone who can't draw to save their life, who proclaims themselves great artists. If you make a living doing drawings then you have some hard learning to do. But we are engravers and that is where the importance of good design has to show, not in our drawings, but in our final work. I rarely, rarely use a computer to do layout, but instead I use it for reference. I can zoom in on photographs to see how the whiskers lie on a tiger or how the feathers look on a mallard. But I try to make it my own by doing what I want, not what a photograph shows. If you feel that you are not an artist and your just copying others designs your probably not an artist. If you put a conscious effort into making it your own and your using your influences to create the work then my friend, you are an artist, whether you like it or not!!!!
I don't have a panograph, all drawings are by my hand with no Photo Shop. Engraving is an art. I would never even have thought of engraving, if I did't have a background in art. My computer skills, spelling and typing are not the best. Our fellow engravers across the the pond have a different approach when it comes to engraving, they get a very early start and they start drawing, then practice, practice, practice and years before they are allowed to put a graver to a gun or a knife. James Meek got us going here in the U.S. with his wonderful book. I encourage all my students to learn how to draw and take a class. I might add drawing to my classes...thats just my 2 cents.
The fact of the matter is that most all of the "ELITE" engravers could do exactly the work they do now. Many of them are fine artist in their own right. Have you seen Ron Smith's drawing skills? How about Sam Alfano, Steve, Eric Gold, Kurt Horvath, all these guys can draw and I mean DRAW. They are all very good draftsmen. I myself am a formally trained artist as are JJ and my sister and others out there engraving.
Because of my art training I still draw my designs for transfer out by hand in a sketchbook. Many on this forum have seen those sketchbooks. Many of engravers are like that. What we use the computer for mostly is enlarging/reducing and tweaking sizes to fit our steel canvas. Computer, modern air driven tools, modern vises etc, are just tools. These are conveniences and time savers that allow us to make $50-$60 an hour instead of $20 an hour
I beleive part of this issue is generational. Many of us are trained with paper and pencil. I can't speak for everyone but I can draw a design out with paper and pencil much much faster than I could even attempt to "draw" an original design on the computer. On the other hand the younger generation who are much better trained and have grown up in the world of computer graphics may be the opposite. But in both cases the artisan is using the tool that gives him the desired result the fastest.
The skill of the user is still what determines the outcome. You can give a monkey a Macbook air with all the bells and whistles but don't be expecting a Shakespearean sonnet to come rolling out of the printer.
The real debate is, What makes it a work of art? It is generally accepted and has been for centuries that he tools used on a piece are not what makes it art.
For my two cents, it is the creative process combined with good craftsmanship that is the basis of "Art". If an idea or theme can be expressed as well all the better.
No mater what the medium being used, if a person has control over the creative process in design, materials, execution, etc, then what he has produced is likely art no matter what tools he may have chosen to save himself labor.
This notion of doing things the "Hard slow way" being better is nonsense in my opinion. IF we saw a man out on an empty lot digging a hole for a basement with a shovel we would all think he was dumb as a bag of hammers for not using a backhoe. Yet many still question the integrity of artist for not using burnt sticks for pencils and working by candlelight.
Just because a guy works as an artist doesn't mean he has to wear rags and go hungry to be real.
Ray
Because of my art training I still draw my designs for transfer out by hand in a sketchbook. Many on this forum have seen those sketchbooks. Many of engravers are like that. What we use the computer for mostly is enlarging/reducing and tweaking sizes to fit our steel canvas. Computer, modern air driven tools, modern vises etc, are just tools. These are conveniences and time savers that allow us to make $50-$60 an hour instead of $20 an hour
I beleive part of this issue is generational. Many of us are trained with paper and pencil. I can't speak for everyone but I can draw a design out with paper and pencil much much faster than I could even attempt to "draw" an original design on the computer. On the other hand the younger generation who are much better trained and have grown up in the world of computer graphics may be the opposite. But in both cases the artisan is using the tool that gives him the desired result the fastest.
The skill of the user is still what determines the outcome. You can give a monkey a Macbook air with all the bells and whistles but don't be expecting a Shakespearean sonnet to come rolling out of the printer.
The real debate is, What makes it a work of art? It is generally accepted and has been for centuries that he tools used on a piece are not what makes it art.
For my two cents, it is the creative process combined with good craftsmanship that is the basis of "Art". If an idea or theme can be expressed as well all the better.
No mater what the medium being used, if a person has control over the creative process in design, materials, execution, etc, then what he has produced is likely art no matter what tools he may have chosen to save himself labor.
This notion of doing things the "Hard slow way" being better is nonsense in my opinion. IF we saw a man out on an empty lot digging a hole for a basement with a shovel we would all think he was dumb as a bag of hammers for not using a backhoe. Yet many still question the integrity of artist for not using burnt sticks for pencils and working by candlelight.
Just because a guy works as an artist doesn't mean he has to wear rags and go hungry to be real.
Ray
Haraga.com
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Here is my question. If you print off some existing media, that is not your original, then transfer it onto metal and engrave it, is it art? Also are you an artist when you do this?
In my opinion, no because you gave up the creative process to another person. The design work is the creative process in any artwork. The execution is the mechanical process. Executing another's design is utilizing only the mechanical process of of producing the design on a surface.
I have many many projects that have been created but never produced. They have gone through the creative design process but not the mechanical process of being produced.
These are also not "art". They have been designed so they have gone through the creative process but they have never been executed so have not gone through the mecahnical process of being produced. They exist as only ideas and designs worked out in my head. They have no material existence to express my ides to anyone else.
I my opinion, and it is just that my opinion, you need both the creative process and the mechanical process for a piece of art to exist.
Ray
I have many many projects that have been created but never produced. They have gone through the creative design process but not the mechanical process of being produced.
These are also not "art". They have been designed so they have gone through the creative process but they have never been executed so have not gone through the mecahnical process of being produced. They exist as only ideas and designs worked out in my head. They have no material existence to express my ides to anyone else.
I my opinion, and it is just that my opinion, you need both the creative process and the mechanical process for a piece of art to exist.
Ray
Christopher Malouf
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
So Ray, are you saying that the engraving by Ormsby I posted at the beginning of this thread is no longer "art" ... or just not Ormsby's art?
I would say it was not "art" and that Ormsby never intended it to be art. Ormsby was not paid by the engraving/publishing company to make art but to make a faithful reproduction of a piece of art for the purposes of publication and distribution. That engraving was not intended to be a piece of art but a means to show the masses what a particular piece of art (John Trumbull's piece of art) looked like. This was the technological process in that day for doing this.
While we can admire the quality and faithfulness of the reproduction it is still just that, a reproduction of a piece of art. It not a piece of art itself.
Ray
While we can admire the quality and faithfulness of the reproduction it is still just that, a reproduction of a piece of art. It not a piece of art itself.
Ray
Christopher Malouf
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
You know that this has been debated for centuries .... is a reproduction still art? Theoretically it is art but in a different context from the original. As if you were cloned, your clone would not be you but a reproduction of you that is still human.
By the way ...... this is mind boggling ....
The Art Of Reproduction
By the way ...... this is mind boggling ....
The Art Of Reproduction
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