A common language?????

[jimzim75]

Ray,
So, that's what this is all about. A mole hill / mountain thing.
Why couldn't this have quietly diapered without ever having hit the forum?
Why did this rate any time at all?
Why would Sam be put in a awkward position?
I suppose I should stop poking at this subject,
and let it bury itself.

Jim

 

[Dave London]

The END. I hope

 

[Frank P]

yep Dave, right!!
and at the end.. it is the result that counts..
have a nice day you all!
Frank

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Thanks guys for some very eloquently put thoughts and philosophies. In the original posting is snuck things like the 'other' forum and Brands X & Y in deliberately to see if anyone would pick up on them and show how stupid this whole thing is. My God, if I ever met any of you and the discussion got around to what tools we each use I'd hate to think it'd degenerate into a slanging match and fisticuffs! Mssrs Lindsay and Glendo are big enough and savvy enough to run their businesses very well and hopefully profitably for each of them. They each need our business and neither is a charity. Competition in industry is a fabulous thing and helps us with new innovations coming on stream for us to use or improvements and updates to old equipment.

Steve, I will indeed eat humble pie if that is the medicine required at the time. All I have ever tried to do is impart knowledge to those who seek to improve their work and to even the playing field occassionally when I see things getting a little out of balance if this has caused any offence to anyone I apologize sincerely. There were some things said not so long ago which were bordering on libel and could have easily gone to litegation. In this day and age the internet is no protection and is taken as the written word. But in the long run what good would this have done other than make a lot of lawyers rich?

This forum is a fantastic place to meet, exchange ideas and make friends. Let's not tread on egg shells when we want to say something but let us not forget that Sam and Tira put their own time and effort into running this site and bickering is the last thing any of us want or need.

 

[Bama]

What is the intended purpose of either forum? Is it to promote the art of engraving? To promote the use of a certain make of equipment? To promote a particular engravers skill? To promote a certain engraving school? To promote a competitive edge? What is their purpose?

Unfortunately both sites are tied to competitors who suppy engraving equipment, schooling and supplies. This situation most of the time leads to competitors competting customers which can be ugly at times.

I applaud Sam for this site. I being a new engraver just starting and trying to glean as much info as I possibly can have found this site to be a wonderful source of info. I can only hope that those of you that have reached a grand level of expertise can appreciate what this site means for those of us not at your level of skill.

I hope that those I have come to admire can be bigger than to mar this wonderful site by something so petty as a tool.

 

[Thierry Duguet]

Marcus' post got me thinking (yes, that happens sometimes).
I'm in the camp who says "use whatever tools you want to get the best result". Masters of photography in the last century got 1000 times better photos with 35mm b-w film and almost no darkroom than I probably ever get with superduper high-end digital camera and pin-sharp lens. The man, not the machine makes the result. To quote Ansel Adams: "There's nothing worse than sharp picture of fuzzy concept". Lot of people make superior engravings than me and it's not about the tools, I'm pretty sure about it.
Viljo

Well said Vilts. Tools do not have talents only people behind them do.

 

[Peter E]

Bama,
Your question is a good one as Steve Lindsay has stated from the beginning that his forum was created to support the AirGraver and his customers, while Sam has made it clear that this forum is NOT affiliated with any product or manufacturer and is to promote engraving.

Both forums are definitely a wealth of information for us that are learning and I appreciate what they offer as I do with Knife Network and various other forums.

Peter

 

[Swede]

Bama,
Your question is a good one as Steve Lindsay has stated from the beginning that his forum was created to support the AirGraver and his customers, while Sam has made it clear that this forum is NOT affiliated with any product or manufacturer and is to promote engraving.

Peter

Peter, with respect, maybe Steve said that, but what was initially a product support forum, which is standard in almost any industry, has transformed into one for general engraving. There is ZERO editing or post "enforcement" in any way. I participate in both forums under different usernames. I could easily post there at the LINDSAY ENGRAVING SITE (not the "other" site, please) and rave about something GRS has made, and the post will stand on it's own merit. Steve is a gentleman and I consider him a good friend. When I wanted to buy a footie Airgraver because he was backed up in Palmcontrol production, he offered to send me one of his spare Palmcontrols to use while I waited. He has also sent them to people he doesn't even know who simply want to try them.

 

[Peter E]

Swede,
I would wholeheartedly agree to the integrity and talent of Steve Lindsay. I also participate in his forum and frequent his site almost daily. As to your statement "There is ZERO editing or post "enforcement" in any way", unless changes have been made, that is incorrect.

As a matter of fact, Steve called me personally to explain WHY he edited a post I had made referring to a GRS product. His forum was also set up to automatically edit out the acronym "GRS". I will also say it was an absolute pleasure speaking to Steve Lindsay as I consider him amongst the best. He welcomed me to participate in his forum despite my using a GRS Gravermax and not an Air-Graver.

That was during 2006 so perhaps the forum has changed. He explained in our conversation the primary purpose of the forum was to provide support for Air-Graver owners so that he would not have to address each question/problem personally.

I do not wish to perpetuate any ill will amongst ANY forumites but thems the facts!

With all due respect,
Peter

 

[Barry Lee Hands]

Hi Peter E,
You have a lot of good information there, but currently you can post any acronym you wish if it is not obscene on the Lindsay forum. The acronym you mention is in fact mentioned 92 times according to a google search of the engraving forum site. If you wish to follow the link click here.
Lindsay's forum is open to anyone who wishes to discuss engraving, and tools regardless of manufacturer.
All the best,
Barry lee Hands

 

[Big-Un]

Hey, it takes two to tango and a lot of people seem to like to dance. If you don't think so, look at the number of posts here.

 

[coincutter]

All this political stuff is too weird but corporations make millions while we make a few bucks and i think they do have a ball watching the bickering because for them it boils down to free advertising

I do tutorials and I dont specify you have to own this kind of tool or gadget to do the deal correctly. I do think some tools work better than others for certain types of work but a good tool in the hands of a clutz is not a good tool.

I think what we seem to forget in our haste to feed our egos is that we are not getting rebate checks from the makers or the tools we buy. We probably need to spend more time taking care of each other and the heck with the tool makers on all accounts.

Someone is going to get the money one way or another.
Marcus lets go back to being friends again, i liked it better that way.
If i need to make a formal appology just let me know what you want me to say.

 

[Jeffrey Parry]

If I can share a personal story:
When I was a boy my father took me to an exhibit of Frederick Remington sculpture. He asked me my opinion and, at close range, I gave a loud critique of the artist's work! As I was just learning the trade, I pointed out toolmarks, unsightly welds, abrasions, etc., loudly, for the whole gallery to hear! Brazenly I went on to explain how I would have done this or that, what tool or technique I would have used to impart a higher level of skill to the finished work! The adults within earshot smiled patiently.

Perhaps a little embarrassed but still understanding, my father directed me away from the sculpture to the viewing distance the artist intended. From this range, of course, the minute flaws I identified either disappeared or, by artistic intent, actually served to enhance the finished work.

"And now what do you see? How could you improve upon Mr. Remington's work? What do you see from here?"

As you can imagine, I was embarrassed into silence. Realizing my brash attitude, I was speechless, frozen. Still, my father pursued the lesson.

"Tell me what you see. What would you call that work in front of you?"

"Genius", he said, answering his own question, "genius". He continued, "When you see a Rembrandt does it matter what type brush he used? When you see a sculpture by Michelangelo does it matter what type of rock it is? What chisels he used? Genius like that makes the rest of us just......................mechanics."

Whenever I think myself a critic or when I've deluded myself into thinking I've achieved some ultimate insight into our art that story comes to mind. Keeps me in my place. Just food for thought.

 

[Dave London]

Jeff
Well said and thanks for the story, And Welcome to the forum Dave

 

[Sam]

Jeffrey, your post sums up what a lot of us feel. Thanks for sharing your father's words with us. I would like to meet him some day. / ~Sam

 

[david bain]

I'm new at engraving,I think it's an addiction.I visit both sites and don't care what anybody uses.I just want to get better at engraving.When you get over the my tool you're tool bs, there are some very nice people in both places.