A common language?????

[Marcus Hunt]

Ok, I've been away for the weekend so I don't know what kicked off and upset Sam, I guess I'll find out in the fullness of time. However, when I browse through the 'other' forum there seems to be a definite 'us and them' attitude regarding, of all things, tools and which we choose to use. I'll say right from the start there is no intention on my part to upset anyone and as far as I'm aware it's a free world. So as long as we refrain from personal attacks (which should never be tolerated, well done Sam) a difference of opinion as to how we approach things can be fun as well as educational for all concerned.

It is often said that the English and Americans are two nations divided by a common language and this is often the case. Whilst the internet and it's forums are incredibly liberating and educational they can also be misconstrued as there is no face to face contact and we can 't see the other persons body language to ascertain whether something is being delivered on a personal level or an agressive manner. By way of example of this is the way that some tool users come across with such evangelical zeal that it would appear comical if they weren't taking themselves so seriously. I actually do find it quite funny and often have a laugh and I dare say quite a few British people (or their cousins in Oz and NZ) do too. Lighten up guys, there is enough anger, bitterness and nasty fundimentalism in the world today without bringing it into the engraving world.

As I say some of what I've written in the past may have or has been misconstrued or misinterpreted. One of the recent things is when I've said that using one tool or the other won't make you a better engraver. Some seem to think it does and that is their prerogative. What I meant, for example, was just because Michael Jordan wears Nikes doesn't mean you are going to be able to play basketball like him. You may feel that wearing the same shoes gives you a bit of an advantage and that's great, if it makes you feel better and it does lift your game, go ahead.......but the strange thing is not all players wear the same shoes as Jordan! I wonder why not? Surely if these shoes make him the best player on the planet shouldn't they make me able to do the same if I get a pair??? Do you see where I'm coming from?
Someone may brag that they've let their son or daughter sit down with thier tools and low and behold they've done really well and produced something in 15 minutes and with no training coz they used tool X;
that's great and I'm glad you're a proud parent. Post their work and let us all critique it. They may be some sort of child genius that can produce engravings instantaneously and if they are I'll be the first to praise them. But the thing is, have they the aptitude to take engraving on seriously with the dedication and thousands of hours involved to become really good? I can fling paint at a canvass the same as the next man, it doesn't make me a Picasso or Warhole though!

What makes this whole tool subject so laughable though is we never here anyone shouting ' I use a Black and Decker drill,' and someone else shouting back 'they're crap use a DeWalt!' When I give or have given feedback to novices or those enquiring about tools I am doing so from a standpoint as a professional engraver of nearly 30 years experience and am only relaying to the enquiree what I use and what avantages or disadvantages I find in using the tools I do and having tried the other brand why I don't like it. It is from a purely personal standpoint and I have nothing against other engravers who choose to use different tools. Indeed, it is often said on this forum to those who make enquiries about tools to try both systems if possible and use the one you get on with best. Sad to say such advice seems rare elsewhere.

My wife sometimes serves me up brussel sprouts even though she knows I can't stand the things and can't understand why I don't like them when she does! "You like 'em, you eat 'em but don't expect me to!" I tell her as I force one down. We are all different people and as the proverb says "One man's meat is another man's poison." I own and use Brand Y because I like it, Brand X doesn't interest me because (like the sprouts) I tried it and didn't like it. That is not to say that Brand X isn't a good tool, it is beautifully made and a mini work of art, it is just not what I choose to use.

So, please, take up whatever sharp instrument you like to work with and engrave and if Brand X makes you feel better about the way you work or suits your style better then bully for you! Let's just cut metal or whatever medium we choose, have fun and show our stuff for others to see. This really is a great place to be, let's not mess it up. I want friends on this planet not enemies.

 

[jimzim75]

Hi Marcus,
Learning a complete system, whether is tools or programs for
computers is quite an accomplishment. It is quite natural to take pride
in what has been done. Much like learning another language it takes a lot
of effort. I would say people tend to band together that have succeeded.
It makes ya feel good and proud. Sneering at another group that has
done basically the same thing, not in English for example but in Italian.
Is basically pointless. The work done by both groups is top notch, for both.

Of course in my opinion the guy that learns both languages is far ahead
of either group. Going into a hostile situation and gleaning all the information
you can is what has lead to my own success. The Canadian still haven't
figured out that I American yet. Whenever they get suspious, I just buy
another round. Works every time.

I learning Apple but it sure seems like I speaking in French most of the
time. I only really speak English. The only thing stopping me form
buying a Lindsay engraver is the threat of divorce if the wife finds out.
This isn't stopping me, it just may take a while to pull it off. So once
I get both systems. Do I get sneered at by both sides?
No, I just buy another round, it works every time.
Jim

 

[Peter E]

Interesting post Marcus and some good points made. I did notice just today on "another" forum a post touting a particular type of pneumatic tool that "undoubtedly" makes ones work superior than other equipment.

For whatever reason it seems there are those that appear to have a need to foster a "mine is better than yours" mentality.

Peter

 

[Tim Wells]

The very day we all put a complete stop to the use of phrases like; the 'other' forum or I saw on 'another' forum as though Lindsays site is some sort of ******* site, will be the day we head off in the RIGHT direction.

We are all members of a unique community of extremely highly skilled artisans and as such it would and should be expected of all of us to present ourselves as gentlemen and therefore blameless. I have both brands on my bench as most people I know do also. They both make great, not merely good equipment that do what they are designed to do. We are very fortunate to have all these choices to get something that fits our hands, approach and even our personalities.

The end result is all that matters and how you get there is strictly personal preference of method. So I submit that we all choose our weapon and go attack a piece of metal with it, not each other. Life is good but mighty darn short...

 

[coincutter]

Marcus perhaps it's a matter of tempering what we say with humble pie.
One statement one mouth of humble...

Perhaps it's a English thing. We have gotten into it in times past. I know I have ticked you off and you have afforded me the same honor but then maybe that's our old Blue Blood dna kicking in.

When someone throws down the gauntlet it seems we just have to pick it up and throw it back rationality be damned full speed ahead God save the Graver! There are a few things you continue to say that I find disparaging and I have made it known I wasn't thrilled but I am certainly not going to make a vendetta out of it.

This last incident whatever it was proves things don't always pan out as desired or expected as the spoken word is taken differntly from what we put in type. Inflections are hard to convey.

I am learning to be humble perhaps most of it is smoke and mirrors but humble i try to be anymore as it causes less crap to hit the fan. I certainly won't be getting into any wars in your camp as it serves no purpose. That little down and dirty ditty we had on the knife forum in the past was sufficient educational experience to convince me it's a waste of time to argue tools and techniques. But I was taking a lot of heavy pain meds at the time so I plead insanity! I still take sufficient medications for the injuries to make me wonder if things I say and do are politically incorrect but then after hitting the send key it's too late to do anything about it!

I wish the tool wars would stop. It does damage to the art form and I am sure outsiders look at us like we are mad. Perhaps looking though a scope all day rather than mastering our social skills and walking about in public leads to these moments. It's common knowledge that there is more than meets the eye in the engraving realm. It's skill politics money egos professional jealosy and a fierce competition for the same dwindling dollar. in fact it was a dollar issue that got me upset with you not long ago.

Those who set themselves on the top of the heap being masters or what ever title of nobility must expect others will be taking potshots at them as everyone wants to ride the white horse eventually and ultimately makes an attempt to unseat the white knights. They too want the reputation and the business it brings. It's a natural occurance here in the wilds of America. Over there where it's "civilized" people have learned different techniques to deal with such things. It's done with white gloves. Here the gloves come off and it gets ugly fast. The forum machine is not the medium for accurate communications.

It's the American way to take the side of the little guy fighting the big corporation and that I feel is the Lindsay GRS issue. I doubt it's a matter of tool capability in the hands of a particular engraver as much as people would like to believe. I have mastered the Lindsay tool, but that doesn't make me a master of anything and yes, I have issues with anyone being called master other than Yoda on starwars but I studied under a master or two and to date have seen very few people who knew how to take advantage of what their tools will do in ever y respect, especially the Airgravers palm or foot control. Conversly I see a number of owners of other tool types who can't run their toys well right down to the simple hammer and chisle. So it has to run deeper than the tool and I firmly believe it's all egocentric based. I still spend money with both companies out of necessity. So again for me it's not product loyalty. It's whatever i need to do the job. I buy products from many companies. It's a done deal. Someone will get my dime.

I see a variety of camp followers.
Pure artists who don't give a hoot what tool they pick up they simply create.
Tool maker types - they seem to develop fierce loyalties right out of the box.
Political types - they thrive on the debate.
The insecure who stay students all their lives
The masters and teachers who have figured out its all relatively simple and just engrave
and of course a few combinations in between.
Last but not least are the newbies who really haven't a clue.
But all have one thing in common. They are a source of revenue for someone.

I have learned over time that truely the ones who really count are those blessed individuals who send cash checks or gold bullion to my doorstep for the things that i do which please them.

The companies will not be there to offer a helping hand when the shelves are bare and there is no food on the table. It will be left to me to survive and feed my family using the few skills I have and the paltry collection of tooling i have acquired over the years. So with that in mind do we not need to think hard about where our loyalties lie.

My vote is with the client or the collector. Not the source of the tools. Our peers provide us with a sounding board and often a reality check but as far as professional relationships go there are limits which become apparent when it's time to scramble for the all mighty dollar. Aside from that, it's about learning to play together in a big sandbox and not throw too much sand into the eyes of the others.

I don't think you will find much on the other forums but I may be wrong. I haven't seen what was said. But I feel you raise hackels when you say "when I browse through the 'other' forum there seems to be a definite 'us and them' attitude regarding, of all things, tools.

Well is there any doubt? Does this comment perpetuate that otherness. Of course there is a separation. It's like Catholic and Protestant. Hand genades and horseshoes. It's been hashed thousands of times over. It may never cease.

Yes there is an prevailing attitude of difference.
I don't think anyone comes to mind who is a master engraver who is a member of the other camp. That's strange now isn't it. It's obvious that everyone reads both and cross posts a bit but there is a definate bent towards where the consumers choose to call home ground and that may well be the issue as the competition for titles is not a major issue. Although I am sure everyone would like to be recognized and labled as such it's just silly. Maybe a century ago it made a difference but today with modern tooling and all the tricks we employ anyone can be a master overnight if they pay attention to what they are doing and their customers believe it.

With all that said I hope all this is past and done with. Bygones be bygones at least till the next war!!
Take care and do post some pictures of these blades and perhaps a video of how you employ them the diffference etc. A picture is worth a thousand words you know.

Cheers

 

[coincutter]

You know after lengthy consideration I have come to the conclusion that if some one will donate to me one of each particular tool I will be glad to write an indepth review as long as i dont have to return the items
that would have to include scopes vises gravers etc etc a new digital nikon to take the pictures with for the article and a nwe computer system for the publishing aspect.
just have it shipped to my house - freight prepaid
dont forget to add a few extra bucks to have someone move the crates in for me
and then there is that issue of refinishing the basement to get heat and light down there.

ill need an instructor to show me how to run all the stuff too

 

[Cody]

Marcus, I 'm happy to see you post your observations. I used to check out Steves site but don't any more because I got tired of the GRS bashing that contributed nothing of value to the discussion. Funny thing is, I've never seen Steve himself put down GRS equipment and I strongly suspect that he dislikes the equipment bashing as much as us. He stikes me as a very stand up guy very much like Sam,. I think it's the wolf pack effect that brings out the snide comments. The confidence that comes from being in a group of like minded people. Kinda like going to a Classic chevy convention. You can make any insulting remark you want about fords because it's a pretty safe bet you won't have to defend your statement to a ford owner and even if there WAS a ford owner there, he likely wouldn't say anything in a large group of chevy enthusiasts. The same person at a classic "car" convention will likely be more polite and keep the insults to themselves as they don't know what the people around them drive. I've seen it here as some members, when posting here are very polite and helpfull and keep their personal equipment preferences to themselves but over on Steves site, the same person will join in on the GRS bashing. I think it's just human nature and a way of gaining acceptance within a likeminded group. We need to remember, Steve set up his site as a place to discuss the use of the air graver. Sam set up this site as a place to discuss all things engraving.

 

[Sam]

After much thought I have come to the conclusion that, as coincutter says, some people simply thrive on conflict and debate. Apparently this is part of human nature, and who am I to try to change it? This being the case, I have made an executive decision pertaining to the matter.

As of today, August 6, 2007, tool wars, conflicts, flames, insults, and public humiliations will be allowed under the following conditions:

1.) A special private Cafe War Forum will be set up especially for this purpose.
2.) The members who wish to engage each other must purchase a 7-day license from me - cost $200 ea.
3.) They will then be admitted into the private War Forum where they can battle it out.
4.) Other members will be admitted on a pay-per-view basis for the low cost of $50 ea.
5.) Warring, flaming, insulting, and humiliating without a license is strictly prohibited.

Thank you for your attention.

~Sam

 

[coincutter]

Actually what you propose although tongue in cheek is not a nw idea. There was a forum for combat vets dealing with ptsd that had what was called a free fire zone where such things were a matter of course. No holds barred. It was interesting to read the posts; on one side all politically correct and on the other side everyone showing their butt and being down right blood thirsty.

You are correct in saying that some people seem to thrive on conflict. I don't say some, I say all in differnt degrees. There are varying levels of agression from active to passive. When it becomes a game of the ego making it self feel good the nature of the presentation of subtle attacks is quite interesting to study.

So in light of your offer if their are any idividuals who wish to participate in such conflicts but do not feel they have the necessary skills I can offer a class equal in intensity to anything offered by Blackwater PMC in the steps necessary to undermine and destroy the psyche and credibility factor of anyone they wish to destroy publically. It will run about 4k but the increase in your profits as the intended victim is forced into retirement will be well worth the investment. For an additional 5k I can offer some very sophisitcated techniques for using and sitting on a digital scanner to get the best possible images for those who wish to show their rear in public. Students will be required to provide a release of liability for glass shards in the rear event they screw up but other than that one risk the course is pretty safe.

Interested parties can make checks out to the Steve Ellsworth retirement fund. I'll send you the number ofthe Swiss account on acceptance.

 

[Tim Wells]

... in the rear event? Or rare event? I think I like the accidental humor version of "rear event" better, that's funnier than the cable guy right there...

 

[jimzim75]

Just in fun.

You a funny guy Sam.
Hmmmmmmmm wait a minute. Was this just a slow new day and you want to
liven up the old engravers cafe? Is this like when Michel J. said to the N. Enquirer you can only print the
story if you use the word Bizarre? Are there really tiny space ships circling Sam's head looking for a place
to land and have a party.

Coincutter, I do like the idea of duelling with gravers. Could be the longest duel ever. First rule of the duel.
You must launch all attacks form the country your in. A fleet of tiny missals streaking across the oceans
to inflict tiny mortal wounds. GRS could put a death ship to circle the planet and hurl millions of tiny blade.
While Lindsay goes underwater to stand off shore and launch salvo after salvo in retaliation.
I can't wait for the movie. Who said engraving was boring?

The cheque is in the mail 50.00 Rupies (India).

Jim

 

[vilts]

Marcus' post got me thinking (yes, that happens sometimes). Why indeed it is so that some personal preferences make people argue and start flamewars while others not? I've computer background so I'm very familiar with Windows vs. Linux vs MacOS, SPARC vs PC vs Apple vs ARM, Perl vs Python vs Ruby; from photoworld: Canon vs Nikon, Hasselblad vs Mamiya, in engraving of course GRS vs Lindsay. But absolutely nobody cares which kind of soap, toothpaste, dremel or monitor are you using. Now why is that?

I'm in the camp who says "use whatever tools you want to get the best result". Masters of photography in the last century got 1000 times better photos with 35mm b-w film and almost no darkroom than I probably ever get with superduper high-end digital camera and pin-sharp lens. The man, not the machine makes the result. To quote Ansel Adams: "There's nothing worse than sharp picture of fuzzy concept". Lot of people make superior engravings than me and it's not about the tools, I'm pretty sure about it.

I must add that this is one of the friendliest and helpful forums I've ever been in, let's keep it that way!

Viljo

 

[KCSteve]

Viljo,

As far as I can tell the reasons behind most flame wars are similar to the reasons why academic and school board fights get so viscious - the actual stakes are so small they're a 'safe' venue for battle.

Apparently some people use these areas in place of fighting any real battles in their lives. Neighbor keeps you up all night with loud partying? Use the time to smack the silly off of someone online! Don't have any good target handy? Go to a site that's pro A and slam B.

Of course sometimes the feuds are real and the emotions run just as high as it looks from the outside. Some of those are continuations of 'real world' things, others are entirely part of the unreal world.

Me, as I've said I don't worry about it. Very little that goes on in the e-world is worth getting too worked up over and in the real world I either deal with things or live with them. Actually that's all anyone can do but I realize it and don't fret about it.

Yes, life is good in my little world.

Edited to add: as to the 'what tools' question: well, once I'm an engraver (rather than a guy whose wife bought him some tools) I might have an opinion but since so far I've seen astounding work done by hand, by hammer, and by a number of different powered tools I figure gravers are just like any other tools and will use what seems to work for me. But I am willing to join in the true test and will accept donations - just PM me for details.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

All communities and relationships are based on the very slender thread of goodwill. Once that is gone then the community goes down with it and everyone suffers.

Words are a very powerful thing and can be used to uplift or destroy. We have all said things we regret and on hind sight would not have said them and the opposite is true when we have wished that we had said something but the moment has passed.

Words said in love or anger are the most powerful of all and can have lingering effects long after the actual words are forgotten.

Words can have different meanings depending on your educational, cultural and individual backgrounds and something normal to one person can be offensive to others.

At the end of the day we are all part of a community with family, friends and loved ones. That also applies to the people behind a business. We are all humans with feelings and emotions and we can be hurt or uplifted very easily.

Perhaps it would be a good idea when we know we are on a sensitive topic to temper our words with caution and before a post is made think of the effect it can have on others reading it and if needs be, modify the words and convey the message a different way.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Barry Lee Hands]

Good words Andrew.

 

[AllanFink1960]

Jeepers, I step out a couple days and come back and find dismembered body parts all over the room, and bloody engraving tools stuck in several people. Some people have all the fun.

I think the losers of sam's war room debates should have to engrave "I promise to be nice to everyone in the engraving forum from now on forever and ever" on the edge of every buffalo nickel in a whole roll, just to get the message to sink in.

Sam, enclosed is my $500 for tickets to the first ten debates. Let the music begin.

Heh.

 

[Tim Wells]

Allan, I sure am glad you weren't one of my grade school teachers; the mint would have run out of nickels and the ones in circulation would be worth hundreds each due to demand alone.

Life ain't easy for a kid that got his mouth washed out with soap in Kindergarten; by the teacher! I still remember her name and I'm 43. Ahhh the good ol' days.

 

[coincutter]

if i cut that on a nice nickel what am i offered - cash money.

 

[Sam]

Tim Wells makes an excellent point about those of us who say 'the other' forum as opposed to calling it by name. I've done this myself and there's really no reason to, and I've seen people on Lindsay's forum avoid our name, too. It would be a good idea to work together towards changing that. It serves no purpose, and it would be a start in the right direction.

I would certainly like to see the tension become a thing of the past. We're much too small of a family to be tearing each other apart. It wicks away our creativity and energy and consumes precious time that could be better spent supporting those coming up the ranks. Like children in a dysfunctional family, our beginners will be the ones who get cheated.

~Sam

 

[Ray Cover]

I think we just need to all get together with gloves once a month and beat the hell out of each other to get it out of our systems.

On a serious note, I think way too many people are just way too thin skinned and way too many egos are way too frail. Thats not to say we should just be blatantly rude and hateful to each other but I have seen people get upset over some of the most trivial stuff.

I come back from vacation this past week and I find that there was some kind of issue with something a student posted about one of my classes. She posted the same thing over on Steve's forum and I read it over and over again and still can't figure out what she said that made folks think they needed to come to my defense. I had Holly read it and she didn't get it either. Steve didn't get it either The poor lady just wanted to say something nice about her experience here and it got all turned around on her. I guess because someone was afraid I would be offended because of the wording.

Who cares if I was offended. My sun doesn't rise and set upon every human saying nice things about me or agreeing with me. Tolerance for tolerance sake sucks!

I agree we should not be vicious with one another but the flip side of that coin is that a lot of us need to grow some skin and learn to suck it up a bit.

My 2 cents,

Ray