9 MM Makarov
- Thread starter finn
- Start date
PAUL LANTUCH
Elite Cafe Member
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2008
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- 208
Why?!
Makarov is so chip army gun with no collectable reputation.
May be good for practicing as a blank of steel.
Engraving itself is twenty times more valuable as this gun and very nice.
Makarov is so chip army gun with no collectable reputation.
May be good for practicing as a blank of steel.
Engraving itself is twenty times more valuable as this gun and very nice.
Christopher Malouf
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Hi Finn,
Paul has point and his intention is purely complimentary. One which I second and let me be clear ... your engraving is great!!
I've put a lot of engraving on some guns that will never be worth a darn (... guns that ain't even anywhere as good as this 9mm). I always take a big financial loss but my engraving has improved. It's a trade-off but one that pays off in the end. It's time to select a canvas that is worthy of your work ... in other words ... you want your work to appeal to both the custom market and , if possible, the collector market. It's a tough nut to crack. I put that Remington cap & ball replica I posted here a while back in a jewelry store in South Hills in Charleston. I would never sell it in any other market other than the "artsy" market of a Second Amendment friendly state and even if it doesn't sell ... it will attract more hand engraving customers for custom jewelry work. I don't believe I would display it anywhere else because some of these stuffy collectors will interpret my work on a spaghetti replica as not being good enough for a better gun ... so I was politely told by a collector in Harrisburg last weekend. As much as I love those old Remingtons ... I'll wait for Remington to begin selling their own reproductions (made by USFA in Hartford) before I buy another which will be soon I hope.
Anyway ... that's the bitter sweet reality of firearms engraving (and actually making money at it). Glad I'm approaching it with a "hobby" strategy because it sure is a bumpy road with a steep learning curve. Try to meet up with some of the old timers that are in this forum at shows ... you'll learn a lot in just one visit.
btw ... that 1911 on your web site is awesome as well. A Colt will always bring you a better (and quicker) return on your investment ... especially with your artistic talent.
Regards,
Chris
Paul has point and his intention is purely complimentary. One which I second and let me be clear ... your engraving is great!!
I've put a lot of engraving on some guns that will never be worth a darn (... guns that ain't even anywhere as good as this 9mm). I always take a big financial loss but my engraving has improved. It's a trade-off but one that pays off in the end. It's time to select a canvas that is worthy of your work ... in other words ... you want your work to appeal to both the custom market and , if possible, the collector market. It's a tough nut to crack. I put that Remington cap & ball replica I posted here a while back in a jewelry store in South Hills in Charleston. I would never sell it in any other market other than the "artsy" market of a Second Amendment friendly state and even if it doesn't sell ... it will attract more hand engraving customers for custom jewelry work. I don't believe I would display it anywhere else because some of these stuffy collectors will interpret my work on a spaghetti replica as not being good enough for a better gun ... so I was politely told by a collector in Harrisburg last weekend. As much as I love those old Remingtons ... I'll wait for Remington to begin selling their own reproductions (made by USFA in Hartford) before I buy another which will be soon I hope.
Anyway ... that's the bitter sweet reality of firearms engraving (and actually making money at it). Glad I'm approaching it with a "hobby" strategy because it sure is a bumpy road with a steep learning curve. Try to meet up with some of the old timers that are in this forum at shows ... you'll learn a lot in just one visit.
btw ... that 1911 on your web site is awesome as well. A Colt will always bring you a better (and quicker) return on your investment ... especially with your artistic talent.
Regards,
Chris
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Hey Finn,
I for one love it. Yes, the makarov is a military and police gun. However, I love mine and would have no questions about engraving it as if it were a Colt (which is also an army gun) or a Walther (another army gun).
Makarovs and many of the other guns in that eastern European 9x18 Makarov caliber like my PA-63 don't get the credit they deserve. While an "army gun" they are very well made and both of mine are very accurate with no after market tweeking. My wife has no problems busting eggs with her's consistently at 30 yards and she doesn't hit the range near as much as I do. I carry my PA63 as my CCW.
I disagree that they have no collectible reputation. They do have a very strong almost cult type following here in the States. The collectible price of Maks has gone up rapidly. I bought my first one about three years ago for about $125. Three years later they consistently bring in the $350 range with some in better condition bringing closer to $400. They have enough of a following that there are many after market upgrade and supe up parts available now. There are guys out there who will put $1,000 or more in one in upgraded barrels grips sights etc, etc. They would probably be willing to spend money on engraving too.
Send pics of this to the folks at Makarov.com and see if they will post it in their gallery section. They will probably like it enough to put your contact info there too. You very well may pick up some business from some of the serious Mak fans.
Good luck and cut what inspires you.
Ray
I for one love it. Yes, the makarov is a military and police gun. However, I love mine and would have no questions about engraving it as if it were a Colt (which is also an army gun) or a Walther (another army gun).
Makarovs and many of the other guns in that eastern European 9x18 Makarov caliber like my PA-63 don't get the credit they deserve. While an "army gun" they are very well made and both of mine are very accurate with no after market tweeking. My wife has no problems busting eggs with her's consistently at 30 yards and she doesn't hit the range near as much as I do. I carry my PA63 as my CCW.
I disagree that they have no collectible reputation. They do have a very strong almost cult type following here in the States. The collectible price of Maks has gone up rapidly. I bought my first one about three years ago for about $125. Three years later they consistently bring in the $350 range with some in better condition bringing closer to $400. They have enough of a following that there are many after market upgrade and supe up parts available now. There are guys out there who will put $1,000 or more in one in upgraded barrels grips sights etc, etc. They would probably be willing to spend money on engraving too.
Send pics of this to the folks at Makarov.com and see if they will post it in their gallery section. They will probably like it enough to put your contact info there too. You very well may pick up some business from some of the serious Mak fans.
Good luck and cut what inspires you.
Ray
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Christopher Malouf
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Hey Finn, looks like Ray has given you another great reason to hold on to this gun (I notice it's for sale on your web site).
Ray Cover;35029 Send pics of this to the folks at Makarov.com Ray[/quote said:
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Dmitry Martinov
Elite Cafe Member
Christopher the correct site to send the pictures is http://www.izhmash.ru/eng/ The same company manufacturing AK series assault rifles and SVD sniper rifle.
finn I think you made a great job and this now unusual Makarov we have.
finn I think you made a great job and this now unusual Makarov we have.
Yup thats the one Chris,
They used to have a gallery on there for customized Maks. Even had a monthly contest at one time for Mak of the month.
It is a niche market but I and others have made a decent living for years off of engraving for niche markets. No your probably not going to get $10,000 engraving jobs on Maks but you could probably get jobs that paid fair by scaling the engraving to meet the budget of the Mak collector.
Ray
They used to have a gallery on there for customized Maks. Even had a monthly contest at one time for Mak of the month.
It is a niche market but I and others have made a decent living for years off of engraving for niche markets. No your probably not going to get $10,000 engraving jobs on Maks but you could probably get jobs that paid fair by scaling the engraving to meet the budget of the Mak collector.
Ray
KSnyder
Elite Cafe Member
Paul, to me engraving a Makarov that don't get no respect is pretty cool.
I wasn't aware a piece had to have "collector value". Remember, people thought that Beanie Babies were "collectable".Yeah, right, made in Communist China by the millions.
A lot of guys on this site engrave Spyderco's too and to me that doesn't make sense, but hey, I guess it makes the world go round.
The Mak's are becoming mighty popular amongst many who carry ccw.
My .02 worth,
Kent
I wasn't aware a piece had to have "collector value". Remember, people thought that Beanie Babies were "collectable".
Yeah, right, made in Communist China by the millions.A lot of guys on this site engrave Spyderco's too and to me that doesn't make sense, but hey, I guess it makes the world go round.
The Mak's are becoming mighty popular amongst many who carry ccw.
My .02 worth,
Kent
D.DOUGLAS
Elite Cafe Member
Hey Finn, Great job there! I am about to start a job on my dads 870 remington 12 guage. I remember shooting it as a kid and it about knocked me to the ground. Again a gun with not much value but a long history in my family. I am engraving it for my own personal enjoyment and hope to learn a few things along the way. I find myself engraving more for pleasure than payment. I have some paying jobs sitting there that always get passed buy because i had a vision of my next masterpiece. Doug
Fred Bowen
Elite Cafe Member
Nice job Finn. I'll bet your Dad was proud that you made that old army gun look so good.
I agree with Ray. I think the Russian military and later commercial Makarovs that flooded the market a few years back are finished to typical rough, but functional, Russian standards and have a rather cranky feeling double action, but are certainly worthy of being engraved. The East German versions are beautifully finished and have a very smooth double action. I intend to engrave one of the two I have and leave the other military (police actually) with no regrets.
Replica revolvers can serve as a valuable next step in the learning curve. When a beginner wants to graduate from flat practice plates to a real gun with curved surfaces and fixturing problems to solve, I think starting with a very expensive Colt single action is a bit risky, unless he has a lot more confidence than I have. The replica may not be marketable when finished, if that is your intention, but it is a benchmark in your level of accomplishment in the art.
I agree with Ray. I think the Russian military and later commercial Makarovs that flooded the market a few years back are finished to typical rough, but functional, Russian standards and have a rather cranky feeling double action, but are certainly worthy of being engraved. The East German versions are beautifully finished and have a very smooth double action. I intend to engrave one of the two I have and leave the other military (police actually) with no regrets.
Replica revolvers can serve as a valuable next step in the learning curve. When a beginner wants to graduate from flat practice plates to a real gun with curved surfaces and fixturing problems to solve, I think starting with a very expensive Colt single action is a bit risky, unless he has a lot more confidence than I have. The replica may not be marketable when finished, if that is your intention, but it is a benchmark in your level of accomplishment in the art.
I think you hit the key thing there Fred. They military finish can be a bit rough but the mechanics and base quality of these pistols is quite good. With a little refinishing, tweeking and upgraded parts like custom grips and sights these are very nice well made guns.
I also think the reason they have gotten the reputation for being cheap is that as you said once they were allowed to import them they showed up by the boat load and you could pick them up for a whole lot less than they were actually worth. Now that they have gained a following the prices are steadily rising.
ITs kinda like what happened with the 10/22. They started out as a cheap base line gun but once folks began to mess with them and realize their potential the upgraded ones have become very popular. One that is all decked out and accurized can bring a nice price now days.
Ray
I also think the reason they have gotten the reputation for being cheap is that as you said once they were allowed to import them they showed up by the boat load and you could pick them up for a whole lot less than they were actually worth. Now that they have gained a following the prices are steadily rising.
ITs kinda like what happened with the 10/22. They started out as a cheap base line gun but once folks began to mess with them and realize their potential the upgraded ones have become very popular. One that is all decked out and accurized can bring a nice price now days.
Ray
qndrgnsdd
Elite Cafe Member
Another MAK lover here. I have several and love to shoot them, and fully intend to engrave my favorite E.German police model. The grips you have on that one can be dressed up with some judicious sanding and filing. At least to give them a little finish instead of the bumpy out of the mold look they come with. GREAT JOB! Owen
www.walkergoldsmiths.com
www.walkergoldsmiths.com
Occupational engraving verses hobbiest engraving:
The word here is do an engraving to suit the piece and you can make money. If you do a masterpiece it should be on a comparable canvas. You won't make nearly as much doing masterpieces as you will quick, nice short pieces and your audience is far bigger. Volume is the secret for the freelance engraver, unless you happen to be in just the right surroundings, where the people you associate with already have the resources to support your artistic endeavors and wait for you to bloom.
I think you guys have been exposed to master works of art and you think you must do that on every piece. An occupational engraver must have volume to have a consistant income. If you appeal to the masses, the general public, not the collectors, you can give yourself that volume. The collector group is much smaller and there is a lot of competition there, not to say, do some work for them too and keep them at a slight distance. If you have a comfortable income from your engraving, then you can run them off with a price, if you know what I mean, and not until. But you will get a smattering of those who see your potential and will invest. That is a wise move and a good investment because you are gaining in your reputation all the while. And the wise collector knows that if he can get your work now, he won't have to pay what you will be worth in a few more years. Have you ever had the experience that if you really need the heavy weight spenders, you can't have them. While on the other hand if you don't need thm anymore, you can't beat them off With a stick?
Just food for thought for those who are trying to make money in this trade. The hobbiest doesn't have to worry about these things and can do the work at his leasure and at his price if he is making a good living doing something else. It is difficult for the occupational engraver to compete with the hobbiest for this reason. The hobbiest can pick and choose. the occupational engraver has financial requirements and is forced to work cheaper. Now there are some that don't agree with that, but they might only see it from their view point. But you have to have been on both sides of the fence.
Don't get me wrong. I am not running down the hobbiest. It is the most joyful way to enjoy this art, and even more rewarding with this approach, and that is the point. I am telling you how it is with the occupational engraver. That is a whole different ball game.
Actually it would be wise to do it on a hobbiest level until the public increases the demand for engraving, but even at that, you have to be versitile enough to serve any client that walks in the door, and I reitterate that you will make more money doing small jobs and even jacking them up a little, so don't be afraid of serving the people that would like to have your work, but can't afford the big jobs. Just do quality small jobs. In this case, designing will make your work appealing and apart from the average, but often times the small jobs are harder to do in good taste than the bigger ones, so a good knowledge of design will help.
Occupational engraving is survival my friends, not necessarily fun, but the shining hope is that we will be appreciated for our dedication to the art at our own expence often. Supply and demand.
The public is more aware of the cost and effort because we have been educating them for thirty plus years. Do that every chance you get, but you need to know the reality of what you are getting into, and that is the reason I am posting this. Some people have it a bit easier than others and there is a lot to learn in either case.
We are helping you to understand how to use your tools, but no one is telling you how to survive it. I hope this generates thought for the aspiring occupational engraver. It was and is a long hard road. No one is getting rich, and there is a lot of sacrifice. Not as much as in the older guy's days, but it is still there.
Educate, educate educate.
By the way, very good job Finn, You put a lot of effort in that job. Use it for a show piece and don't worry about what you put it on. You have to spend a little on advertising and the work speaks for itself. It will get you more jobs.
Right on, ride on Finn, and that is the cost of advancement, and one of the sacrifices you might have to make. It shows your dedication to the art as well. Nothing is going to stand in your way of excellence, and it is that same passion regardless of differing opinions, that will make you successful.
Work on your masterpieces in between. They are a drain on your stamina anyway, and breaks (small jobs) will help your endurance and keep the fire going for that special piece you just cant wait to get back to.
I don't think I would have burned out if I had been able to keep my doors open (volume work) while those inflation years were the cause of rising prices everywhere. I couldn't compete with commercial cost of space etc. It went through the roof, so I had to move home and approach my work from a different perspective. I did one high end job after another and that is a lot of pressure, believe me. Hot fires burn fast and intense and will consume everything close by, so keep a handle on your passion, take breaks (small jobs) and get away from it on a regular basis. If it had not been for me doing that, I don't think I would have lasted as long as I did. But surprising enough, I gained as much and more from the layoff periods as I did from the conscious efforts. You seem to grow during those rest periods without trying.
Ron S
The word here is do an engraving to suit the piece and you can make money. If you do a masterpiece it should be on a comparable canvas. You won't make nearly as much doing masterpieces as you will quick, nice short pieces and your audience is far bigger. Volume is the secret for the freelance engraver, unless you happen to be in just the right surroundings, where the people you associate with already have the resources to support your artistic endeavors and wait for you to bloom.
I think you guys have been exposed to master works of art and you think you must do that on every piece. An occupational engraver must have volume to have a consistant income. If you appeal to the masses, the general public, not the collectors, you can give yourself that volume. The collector group is much smaller and there is a lot of competition there, not to say, do some work for them too and keep them at a slight distance. If you have a comfortable income from your engraving, then you can run them off with a price, if you know what I mean, and not until. But you will get a smattering of those who see your potential and will invest. That is a wise move and a good investment because you are gaining in your reputation all the while. And the wise collector knows that if he can get your work now, he won't have to pay what you will be worth in a few more years. Have you ever had the experience that if you really need the heavy weight spenders, you can't have them. While on the other hand if you don't need thm anymore, you can't beat them off With a stick?
Just food for thought for those who are trying to make money in this trade. The hobbiest doesn't have to worry about these things and can do the work at his leasure and at his price if he is making a good living doing something else. It is difficult for the occupational engraver to compete with the hobbiest for this reason. The hobbiest can pick and choose. the occupational engraver has financial requirements and is forced to work cheaper. Now there are some that don't agree with that, but they might only see it from their view point. But you have to have been on both sides of the fence.
Don't get me wrong. I am not running down the hobbiest. It is the most joyful way to enjoy this art, and even more rewarding with this approach, and that is the point. I am telling you how it is with the occupational engraver. That is a whole different ball game.
Actually it would be wise to do it on a hobbiest level until the public increases the demand for engraving, but even at that, you have to be versitile enough to serve any client that walks in the door, and I reitterate that you will make more money doing small jobs and even jacking them up a little, so don't be afraid of serving the people that would like to have your work, but can't afford the big jobs. Just do quality small jobs. In this case, designing will make your work appealing and apart from the average, but often times the small jobs are harder to do in good taste than the bigger ones, so a good knowledge of design will help.
Occupational engraving is survival my friends, not necessarily fun, but the shining hope is that we will be appreciated for our dedication to the art at our own expence often. Supply and demand.
The public is more aware of the cost and effort because we have been educating them for thirty plus years. Do that every chance you get, but you need to know the reality of what you are getting into, and that is the reason I am posting this. Some people have it a bit easier than others and there is a lot to learn in either case.
We are helping you to understand how to use your tools, but no one is telling you how to survive it. I hope this generates thought for the aspiring occupational engraver. It was and is a long hard road. No one is getting rich, and there is a lot of sacrifice. Not as much as in the older guy's days, but it is still there.
Educate, educate educate.
By the way, very good job Finn, You put a lot of effort in that job. Use it for a show piece and don't worry about what you put it on. You have to spend a little on advertising and the work speaks for itself. It will get you more jobs.
Right on, ride on Finn, and that is the cost of advancement, and one of the sacrifices you might have to make. It shows your dedication to the art as well. Nothing is going to stand in your way of excellence, and it is that same passion regardless of differing opinions, that will make you successful.
Work on your masterpieces in between. They are a drain on your stamina anyway, and breaks (small jobs) will help your endurance and keep the fire going for that special piece you just cant wait to get back to.
I don't think I would have burned out if I had been able to keep my doors open (volume work) while those inflation years were the cause of rising prices everywhere. I couldn't compete with commercial cost of space etc. It went through the roof, so I had to move home and approach my work from a different perspective. I did one high end job after another and that is a lot of pressure, believe me. Hot fires burn fast and intense and will consume everything close by, so keep a handle on your passion, take breaks (small jobs) and get away from it on a regular basis. If it had not been for me doing that, I don't think I would have lasted as long as I did. But surprising enough, I gained as much and more from the layoff periods as I did from the conscious efforts. You seem to grow during those rest periods without trying.
Ron S
That's an interesting perspective Ron.
Your right about breaks. I pushed myself too hard for too long and I had burned out at one point. Forcing myself to take more fishing trips and starting the school has forced me to take a week from time to time and come up for air. I have noticed that those breaks in the intensity have made me more productive when I am into a project.
Most of my work is in the high end collector part of the market and your right it is high pressure. One of the things that has helped me is to diversify. Sam gave me that advice years ago and I heeded it. The majority of my work is high end art pieces but they are spread out among several markets (custom knife market, handmade fountain pen market, hand built fly rod market, etc.) Spreading out over those markets has kept me busy doing the kind of work I enjoy without saturating a single one of those markets with my work.
One of the things that helps there too is that those are fairly small objects. I can do a top of the line engraving on a couple dozen fountain pens in the time it would take to do one double gun with similar work. That does help.
Your right to diversify is the key to surviving. I can see Finn doing a nice design in that flair cut style on these Maks at a fair price and be able to do them fast enough to make money at it. At the same time he can still be keeping his ear to the ground for those bigger more impressive jobs.
Ray
Your right about breaks. I pushed myself too hard for too long and I had burned out at one point. Forcing myself to take more fishing trips and starting the school has forced me to take a week from time to time and come up for air. I have noticed that those breaks in the intensity have made me more productive when I am into a project.
Most of my work is in the high end collector part of the market and your right it is high pressure. One of the things that has helped me is to diversify. Sam gave me that advice years ago and I heeded it. The majority of my work is high end art pieces but they are spread out among several markets (custom knife market, handmade fountain pen market, hand built fly rod market, etc.) Spreading out over those markets has kept me busy doing the kind of work I enjoy without saturating a single one of those markets with my work.
One of the things that helps there too is that those are fairly small objects. I can do a top of the line engraving on a couple dozen fountain pens in the time it would take to do one double gun with similar work. That does help.
Your right to diversify is the key to surviving. I can see Finn doing a nice design in that flair cut style on these Maks at a fair price and be able to do them fast enough to make money at it. At the same time he can still be keeping his ear to the ground for those bigger more impressive jobs.
Ray
Roger Bleile
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Amazingly, I too have an East German police version of the Makarov. It is a well made, well finished and reliabable little pistol. I might do a flair cut engraving on the Mak as I would not want to place a large amount of time in it as a project gun for the reasons well stated by others here. One thing that holds me back is those cheap looking grips. It would be difficult to craft wrap around grips for it and I would not want to put as much money into the grips as I have in the gun ($135.00).
Roger
Roger
Roger there are folks out there making custom grips for those. Off the top of my head I'm not coming up with any names. Just got back from my daughter's hunter safety class and having trouble switching gears here.
Most of the more attractive ones I have seen have been made of three slabs of wood. Two for the sides and one contrasting wood for the backstrap. Like these http://www.imageseek.com/hakan/gallery/mak
Not sure of the cost but they sure dress one up.
I have the Peirce rubber grips on mine. They are a lot like the rubber pachmayers.
Ray
Most of the more attractive ones I have seen have been made of three slabs of wood. Two for the sides and one contrasting wood for the backstrap. Like these http://www.imageseek.com/hakan/gallery/mak
Not sure of the cost but they sure dress one up.
I have the Peirce rubber grips on mine. They are a lot like the rubber pachmayers.
Ray
Christopher Malouf
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Dmitry ... thank-you for posting that.
These presentation Ishmash firearms of Legion Ltd. are fantastic ....
http://www.izhmash.ru/eng/product/legion.shtml
Ray, I haven't been in that store in Cross Lanes for a few years now but I may venture on in and have a looksee. They just might have something unique in the way of grips. There's a great BBQ rib place I frequent and that shop is just up the road.
Chris
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