GTJC460
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
The question is the McKenzie Victorian a scroll a style of its own. Or is it a variation of American scroll as we know it.
Victorian Scroll...is it a style
- Thread starter GTJC460
- Start date
Brian Marshall
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
I would say McKenzie style scrollwork is the absolute classic "American" scroll.
And yet uniquely Lynton's own at the same time...
Brian
And yet uniquely Lynton's own at the same time...
Brian
whatever the name, beautiful surely describes his work/style.
The question has been answered ,you should have tried the search function.....
http://www.engraverscafe.com/showthread.php?7984-Different-styles-on-the-same-scroll&
http://www.engraverscafe.com/showthread.php?7984-Different-styles-on-the-same-scroll&
Andrew Biggs
Moderator
I'm totally over this type of response to a question and find it off-putting and rude. What is this..........The forum search police?
If we all looked up every question we had then the forum would die because no one would bother talking to each other about anything because the question has been asked and answered a 100 times over....it's the same as saying go to the library and look it up. Basically we would all stop asking questions and talking to one another with a response like that. It's really unhelpful.
Cheers
Andrew
GTJC460
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
I brought the point up as to me there are significant differences in the McKenzie Victorian and American scroll. One of the biggest differences I see by looking at the McKenzie smoke pulls are the elongated scrolls with only 1.5 turns, looking more like large tendril style scrolls. Whereas American scroll is usually 2-2.5 turns and much more of a concentric "round" looking scroll.
There are more differences I notice as well which certainly deviate from the accepted norm for American scroll.
I asked the question to the group to stimulate discussion on the art and define what are the "accepted" varieties of scroll.
From my point of view there is
American
Germanic
English
Western
Victorian
Blackleaf
There are more differences I notice as well which certainly deviate from the accepted norm for American scroll.
I asked the question to the group to stimulate discussion on the art and define what are the "accepted" varieties of scroll.
From my point of view there is
American
Germanic
English
Western
Victorian
Blackleaf
mitch
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2007
- Messages
- 2,636
ironic, considering Lynton was Australian...
Brian Marshall
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Mitch,
He developed that style whilst residing in the U.S.
We tend to claim anything done here by anybody as "ours".
Having known him, towards the end of his life - I think he'da been proud...
B.
He developed that style whilst residing in the U.S.
We tend to claim anything done here by anybody as "ours".
Having known him, towards the end of his life - I think he'da been proud...
B.
I think there's a tremendous amount of Ken Hunt influence in Mckenzie's scrollwork, so some of it was certainly developed during time spent with Ken. And Ken taught Lynton hammer & chisel. I'll post some examples when I get time.
Brian Marshall
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
So scientific analysis would classify McKenzie scrollwork as - Australian/British/American? Victorian/American? Or simply McKenzie, since it's kinda in a class of it's own?
B.
B.
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ken dixon
Elite Cafe Member
Thank you Andrew
Barry Lee Hands
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Years ago i was told by people who knew MacKenzie in London that MacKenzie scroll is in fact a refinement of the Holland and Holland Royal scroll which was a modern style of scroll developed by Holland in the late victorian period.
The holland Royal scroll was a response to the craftsmen movement which was very much the fashion at the time and a much more modern look than the rose and scroll.
I was told that this is why MacKenzie refered to it as victorian scroll.
MacKenzie developed this when he was working on Holland guns in London.
It is in fact a production style of scroll.
If you look at Holland Royal engraving with its large scrolls, ribbons to bisect spaces, and the structure of the leaves, this view makes sense.
The holland Royal scroll was a response to the craftsmen movement which was very much the fashion at the time and a much more modern look than the rose and scroll.
I was told that this is why MacKenzie refered to it as victorian scroll.
MacKenzie developed this when he was working on Holland guns in London.
It is in fact a production style of scroll.
If you look at Holland Royal engraving with its large scrolls, ribbons to bisect spaces, and the structure of the leaves, this view makes sense.
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Roger Bleile
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
H&H Royal Scroll
To illustrate Barry's point about H&H Royal scroll, here are some examples.
To illustrate Barry's point about H&H Royal scroll, here are some examples.
Attachments
-
Royal #27008-c. 1912-T-cropped.jpg -
Royal #27008-c. 1912-R-cropped.jpg -
Royal #27008-c. 1912-B-cropped.jpg
Roger Bleile
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Here are some examples of Lynton S. M. McKenzie's eponymous scrollwork.
For what its worth, in my engraving glossary, I list "McKenzie scroll" as a style of scroll. Even though it is a variant of other scroll styles it has elements that are distinctive. Further, engravers and collectors often use the term "McKenzie scroll" to describe that particular style of ornament.
For what its worth, in my engraving glossary, I list "McKenzie scroll" as a style of scroll. Even though it is a variant of other scroll styles it has elements that are distinctive. Further, engravers and collectors often use the term "McKenzie scroll" to describe that particular style of ornament.
Attachments
-
Super BH-L.McKenzie-Rcu.jpg -
Super BH-L.McKenzie-L.jpg -
Super BH-L.McKenzie-B.jpg
IMHO this work by Ken Hunt has elements that influenced McKenzie, not to mention shading.
Barry Lee Hands
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Roger B
Elite Cafe Member
I think you might have forgotten the "Biggs Scroll" - This is only one of many examples and variations -
http://www.engraverscafe.com/showthread.php?8352-Hinemoa-and-Tutanekai-A-Love-Story
Phil Coggan
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
The "Royal" scroll design has been around for many years it is a "Standard" design and was based on a Victorian styl of engraving.
When I started working for H&H around thirty years ago I did many Royals. Engravers were sent rubbings of just the action, the trigger guard, top lever and all the other furnature engraving had to be produced with matching scroll, so it is not unusual to see Royal guns with different pattern parts.
Ken, like myself went out on a limb and pushed the boundaries with designs. I have seen guns that I have not engraved but have my scroll pattern on them, this is not usually an engraver ripping of the work, what has happened over the years is that some of my designs and Ken's have become standard patterns.
The pictures below show work based on true Victorian engraving, they are from the African Hunter series which I did in the late 80's, the portraits are from original photographs and the elephant scene was copied from a drawings by the hunter and engraved bank note style.
Engraving was by H&C and push.
Phil
T
When I started working for H&H around thirty years ago I did many Royals. Engravers were sent rubbings of just the action, the trigger guard, top lever and all the other furnature engraving had to be produced with matching scroll, so it is not unusual to see Royal guns with different pattern parts.
Ken, like myself went out on a limb and pushed the boundaries with designs. I have seen guns that I have not engraved but have my scroll pattern on them, this is not usually an engraver ripping of the work, what has happened over the years is that some of my designs and Ken's have become standard patterns.
The pictures below show work based on true Victorian engraving, they are from the African Hunter series which I did in the late 80's, the portraits are from original photographs and the elephant scene was copied from a drawings by the hunter and engraved bank note style.
Engraving was by H&C and push.
Phil
T
Gemsetterchris
Elite Cafe Member
Those portraits are quite something.
Don't suppose many ask for those with the wording "lion/elephant hunter" these days...
Best keep mum about that hobby!:sly:
Don't suppose many ask for those with the wording "lion/elephant hunter" these days...
Best keep mum about that hobby!:sly:
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