Transfers and drawing

[Kevin P.]

Recently I met Tira in person and she showed me and some others how to transfer an image using T. W.'s solution and that film since discontinued (I heard). She did it quickly and with great detail.
Now that I know how it seems much less important. That doesn't mean I'm ready to give up my film.

What Andrew B., Ron S. and others have said about drawing seems more useful to me now. I'm on of those who thought either you were born with the gift or not. I see now that application and hard work works.

I have a separate file with everything Andrew has said about drawing and design. Ditto for Ron S.

I also realize that the use of transfer film can come to play a more important part in the process if one reaches the level of,say, Phil Coogan. From what I've been able to pick up from his posts he draws on the computer using 'Photoshop' gets his design all together and then transfers that to film to apply to the piece he's working on. He posted one design on a firearm that was so exact and I think he stated explicitly that he used TW's solution.

It seems that drawing is basic.

As I learn from this forum what I thought was the right approach may not necessarily so. This is from a beginner who is very grateful for the expertise shared on this forum. I'm an old dog learning so much I don't know which way to turn.
Kevin P.

 

[KCSteve]

One reason for transfers is that it allows you to draw at a larger size, then scan that drawing into the computer and resize it to fit.

I'm not sure if Phil does it or not but I've seen people post that they draw the scrollwork and then use PhotoShop to add the game scene.

 

[FANCYGUN]

Kevin
Drawing IS BASIC. By using a pencil you not only formulate in your minds eye any pattern or ideas that you have... but more importantly you are honing your motor skills which will help in your actual execution of your engraving.
While I use the TW transfer solution and can appreciate the details that can be transfered......I only transfer the basic outlines and basic details. Too much detail gets in my way as i cut and I feel once the basics are cut.you can add the details as you move along.
So since you are admitting you are an old dog .Learn the trick of not chasing your tail around in circles.
Marty

 

[Kevin P.]

Marty, if we aren't learning, we' re dying. This forum has rejuvenated my learning curve.
I was convinced in school that I couldn't draw so that makes this all the more exciting.

You're an accomplished artist so I can understand why your method works for you. It's going to take longer for me to gain that kind of confidence. But I have noticed in the short time I've been logging on and by engraving some everyday I've made some progress.
Kevin P.

 

[monk]

i'll wager she didn't tell you"transfer" was to be done instead of drawing. nobody will tell you that, if i read you corretly. the transfer technique is simply a way of speeding things up that you may have already drawn by hand. the transfer technique is only a time saver. drawing skill is mandatory. you can master cutting, and also transer technique, but if you cant draw well ! you're going to masterfully cut bad design.

 

[Kevin P.]

Hi Steve, "One reason for transfers is that it allows you to draw at a larger size, then scan that drawing into the computer and resize it to fit." is a bit confusing. I use photoshop to size images; I don't see what transfers have to do with sizing.
Monk, I don't think you read my posting carefully. My conclusion in my post is that drawing is primary. I believe Tira would agree. The transfer comes after the drawing.
My reference to Phil is that, I have no direct knowledge, i'm drawing, no pun, conclusions from various posts, he draws takes the drawing, perhaps by scanning to Photoshop, then improves, adapts and only after it's as he want it; he transfers to a piece of metal.
I do understand perhaps I didn't express myself as clearly as I might.
And for Marty: it's been my experience that old dogs don't chase their tails; it's young dogs that do.
Kevin P.

 

[Mike Cirelli]

Kevin give this a try it's very easy and very fast. http://www.igraver.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4202


I don't know how far along you are with engraving but one of the best investments you could make are purchasing some plastic castings of engravings. There is a classroom of learning in everyone. They give you the opportunity to see what is really on the metal, something you just can't get from a picture. Many engravers offer them for sell they can also be purchashed from FEGA.
In my opinion shading is the life blood of engraving. Cutting an outline is pretty much elimentary. It's what goes between the lines that gives it life. Learning to shade properly is one of hardest things to accomplish. Properly cut shade lines will give any outline character, depth and realism. Good transfers are a great tool but a good transfer alone doesn't make a great engraving.

 

[Kevin P.]

Mike Thanks for the tip.
As I learn more about engraving, that is doing engraving myself, even at my modest level I'm seeing more in engraved pieces than I did before. I understand and completely agree with what you say about shading.
One thing I don't get is: "Good transfers are a great tool but a good transfer alone doesn't make a great engraving." In my mind transfers have nothing to do with making a great or even good engraving.
Kevin P.

 

[Tom Curran]

For me, drawing is essential, crucial, the absolute first step in getting a design from your imagination into three dimensional reality.

Computers are great, they are indispensable as tools. But they are no substitute for pencil and paper.

You have the ability to draw, but it can always be improved upon with practice and schooling. I have heard so many people say "I would do this, but I can't draw". It's that word "can't" that blocks them from going any farther. Try saying 'drawing is difficult for me' instead of 'can't', and you will begin to allow yourself to make some headway. It takes work, and determination, but after spending some time you will see progress.

I see the computer as a tool to take my drawings and scale, rotate, embellish upon. But I do not use the computer to conceptualize my artwork; I do that with pencil and paper. The computer has too much interface between me and the finished art.

Tom

 

[KCSteve]

Kevin

When you draw something at 'life size' it can be hard to draw the details you'll be engraving - especially the shading. You can engrave a line much finer than most pencil lines. So if you take your shape you'll be working in and blow it up to 2 or 3 times life size it's much easier to draw. The problem is that you either have to redraw on the metal or reduce the size of your drawing to make it fit. As you know, it's dead easy to resize things on the computer so I generally draw at about 2X, scan, resize, and then transfer.

And yes, transfers have very little to do with making a good or great engraving - it's the design that makes it good and the execution of the design that can make it great.

But....

The better job you do of getting that design onto the metal so you can cut it, the better your execution is going to be.

So transfers can help in that regard as well.

History shows that there's no real 'need' for transferring a design, but the insider's view of engraving history shows that there is a need from our (engraver's) point of view - the need to get an accurate copy of a design from one spot to another (possibly mirroring it along the way). The need to work from an existing design. The need to be able to show the client what the work will look like and actually have the work look like that. The technology of the transfer isn't the key, just the ability to do it. A coat of wax and tracing the lines in pencil on the back of the drawing so you can burnish down a copy works. But computers make the job easier and more precise.

All of which leads back to the need to draw, since a quick and precise copy of a poorly drawn design just means you'll end up with a perfectly executed poor design.

 

[FANCYGUN]

I know for a fact being an art teacher for over 33 yrs that CAN'T draw is the wrong word to use. Properly it should be I DON'T KNOW HOW TO DRAW.
There are proceedures and techniques for building a drawing and training yourself how to look. Now don't get me wrong here. I am not saying you can learn how to be a great drawer. I am saying you can improve your drawing skills by learning how to draw and end up with a respectable image.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

The importance of drawing

The time I spend at school we where learned to draw. The whole Friday afternoon was fun as we may draw.
Now these days drawing is not so important any more in basic school education and that is a pity.
If I can't explain what I want to tell, I draw it. Once we had an girl from Yugoslavia, she only could speak some German and had to look in the dictionary to find translations in German.

So I invited here to draw things she wanted to explain, and that works. The whole family was drawing and we had a conversation.

Sometimes we play the game "Pictionary" and although we live in a visual world with symbols, my oldest daughter who is smart and graduated for several university diplomas, never learned to draw simple things that is needed to win this game.

So I would say: learn to draw. Your first rabbit perhaps looks like a dog, but the fifth will look like one

arnaud

 

[Kevin P.]

Marty obviously you were a good teacher. I didn't say "I can't draw". I was told that by others in schools. My take is that anyone can learn anything to a certain level of competency. As to the other point I've been looking closely at things since I was five years old. I know good stuff when I see it even though I might not be able to replicate it.
Kevin P.

 

[Kevin P.]

Arnaud, I was a teacher on a few levels. My favorite teaching position was teaching high school drop-outs. Those who for one reason or other didn't finish high school.
If I were in charge every school day would start with art, any kind of art. The rest of the day would go much better. My other thing is there is no good drawing or bad drawing; it should be a process of discovery.
Kevin P.

 

[Mike Cirelli]

Mike Thanks for the tip.
As I learn more about engraving, that is doing engraving myself, even at my modest level I'm seeing more in engraved pieces than I did before. I understand and completely agree with what you say about shading.
One thing I don't get is: "Good transfers are a great tool but a good transfer alone doesn't make a great engraving." In my mind transfers have nothing to do with making a great or even good engraving.
Kevin P.

Kevin what I meant is that transfers can help you see the layout, help you adjust things, change and add things, before you start digging in. Transfers are nothing new to engraving it's just with computers they have been improved upon. When an engraver engraved flatware years ago he used transfers as a tool just as we do today. The reason I say years ago is that there isn't a lot of flatware engraving going on today as it was in days gone by. They used a little different method from computer transfers but it was fast and very efficient and still used today by many. I rarely use computer transfers except for larger items, but I do use the computer for layout and lettering. Even if I draw with pencil and paper first. Good old fashion transfer wax serves me well.

I really like the Wacom tablet instead of pencil and paper, I'm not very good with it yet though. My nephew is studying art at the Art Inst. of Pittsburgh and he hardly ever uses paper and pencil anymore. I guess it is a digital world we live in.

 

[Kevin P.]

one of the best investments you could make are purchasing some plastic castings of engravings. There is a classroom of learning in everyone. They give you the opportunity to see what is really on the metal, something you just can't get from a picture. Many engravers offer them for sell they can also be purchashed from FEGA.
Mike, I thought and heard the same about casts. I bought two and to me they don't show much about the engraving process.
I like the look of Mike Dubber's work. In addition, since I'm a jeweler his cast has more immediate relevance. I was just looking at the cast under the microscope. His work is something I would like to emulate but the cast shows nothing of the mark of the graver. My hope in buying the cast that I would see more than a picture would show.
As for transfers, I bought Lynton McKenzie's book of smoke prints. Some might say a bit pricey at $100, but I say worth every penny. It's a study in shading. I've feed it into Photoshop and have been trying to replicate his work. I'm learning a lot about shading this way. I also have his videos. I'm sure he would have loved to have computers in his day just for lettering alone. For any beginning engravers those two items are of great value in learning. What he describes in his videos is still relevant.

Sorry Mike, I just couldn't help myself.
The working methods you describe are all helpful to me. I appreciate your posts.
Kevin P.

 

[FANCYGUN]

Kevin
See if you can also purchase a copy of the Nimschke book. It also has a wonderful array of pulls of his work to study and copy

 

[Kevin P.]

Thanks Marty I'll check it out.
I hope they have a copy in the GRS library. I'll get a preview.
Kevin P.

 

[Ron Smith]

Kevin,

All of this discussion about drawing leads to one reality. You will be exposed to many shapes to put your work on, and you have to be flexible to alter things to make them fit into that shape. That is one of the major reasons for drawing. It allows you to be self sufficient where no shape can confound you, or space for that matter. In engraving a canvas is a canvas, and you need to interpret and create according to it's shape.

Lettering for instance can be done very successfully by using computer transfers, but there will be more times than not that you will have to lay out the designs to fit the areas you are working in. Otherwise, sometimes they will appear to be add-ons or afterthought in appearance. The only way not to get this result is to be able to draw most of your designs etc. yourself.

Animal portraits etc. work well in transfer methods, but composition does not. They might end up looking like they don't belong together.

I don't believe anyone that says he cannot draw. You can learn to do anything. I never considered myself to be an artist and I only had a little natural ability in drawing. I developed it as I needed it. That is what you will do if you make a commitment to it. That is what all of us have done.

Just keep chipping away at it, and you will succeed and find your own way as you need it. You will also find ways around it that will speed up your processes.

Don't get impatient, for patience is one of your most important tools. Commitment is the key, and don't let anything stand in your way. It is funny how many people get steered away by the critisism by their associates or peers. That dogged determination will prove them wrong.

Acceptance is a human desire, but so often things get abandoned quickly wanting to fit in, or not wanting to be critisized. Critisism is conducive to your growth regardless of what this culture is trying to tell you about it. A man who can stand critisism can advance far above one who is so weak emotionally that he cannot stand to be corrected.

Rock on Buddy and keep drawing.

Ron S

 

[Kevin P.]

Ron, - what you say is what I believe. Some people call me stubborn, some call me bullheaded. The last part is true; after all I'm a Taurus. If someone tells me I can't do something; that gets me started.
I am not one to follow templates; I will improve my drawing skills.
Some have misunderstood perhaps what I've said about drawing and transfers. There has never been a doubt in my mind that drawing is what it's about.

My talk of transfers has always been about the mechanical. It's a way for me to reproduce, say something by Lynton M., Sam A. and others you included, strictly as a way to achieve some technical competence in my engraving stokes and learning about shading.

I'm improving but I've got a long way to go. But I do see progress.
This forum has been and continues to be a great influence on my progress.
When my strokes come easy I be cutting my own designs; not copying others.
Kevin P.