Tool Steel & Sub Zero Quench

[Ron Spokovich]

Occasionally, I read comments on various steels used in gravers, and thoughts of one being better than another. As a thought, I'm leaning toward plain old carbon steel (O-1) as being suitable enough for ALMOST everything, and I'm going to experiment to see if it's true. The reason why is that a company called '300 Below Zero'(?) will heat treat and sub-zero quench almost anything. From an old knifemaker's article, it's claimed that 0-1 done in the right manner will hold an edge FOUR TIMES longer than normal heat treatment. I don't know if true, or not, and hopefully I'll send a batch of 'something' out to see. The knifemakers are always looking for the 'Mother of all edges', and not all materials will respond as well as will 0-1. I don't know if any engravers have tried this, but cost is a factor, too, in everything we do. There's a lot more to the story, but space doesn't permit at this time. Maybe it'll work?

 

[tim halloran]

Ron: Why don't you use high speed steel or carbide, it would be a lot cheaper in the long run.

 

[Ron Spokovich]

The website with a short film clip of the company and the process is "www.300below.com", which shows an array of all of the things that can be cryogenically treated. An old brochure I have somewhere goes into more detail, but the film clip and clicking onto other things can explain the whole deal. It may be worthwhile considering, depending upon cost and some othr factors.

 

[quickcut07]

Have you looked at 4140 cheap, machinable and very heat treatable. Checkout the pros and cons of the 2 before deciding. Adds a little chrome to the mix

Eric

 

[atexascowboy2011]

Knife makers have been doing this for years.
Cattle breeders and veterinarians normally have liquid nitrogen on hand.
Give it a shot.

 

[leschowe]

Hi Ron,
I have watched this video a couple of times and find it to be very interesting - I never knew about this process for treating steel. Thanks for the informative information.
I note that they claim that their process makes parts "last Longer". Do you think that they are claiming to make the parts harder, or to make them more durable - there is a difference? Making a graver more durable would, I suppose, be an advantage, but most of the time you really need the graver to be harder than the metal that you are cutting. Carbon steel, High Speed Steel, and Carbide steel certainly have different hardness levels, but the harder the graver gets the less durable it gets.
If this does, indeed, make the graver harder, this could be a good business opportunity for an enterprising engraver to supply a harder graver at a reduced price.

Les

 

[Sam]

I find it interesting that cryogenically treating nearly anything makes it better. Even brass musical instrument's tone is suppose to improve. Maybe it does, but I'm skeptical.

 

[jerrywh]

No matter how hard you make carbon steel when quenching it must be tempered or it will break like glass. There is more to it than hard. It must be tough also. In order to obtain a extremely hard tough edge it is necessary to use alloys. The cutter has to be harder and tougher than the object you intend to cut.

 

[Brian Marshall]

<"I find it interesting that cryogenically treating nearly anything makes it better.">

Personally, I don't think it does. Warm beds and hot showers this time of year are proof enough for me...


Brian

 

[Ron Spokovich]

In general, and overly broad, cryogenic treatment, after heat treatment and tempering, imparts qualities to the object or steel that ordinarily are not there after manufacture. There is supposedly a magnetic process that works similarly, but I'll not go into that here. In general, manufacturers would need to jack up their price and tooling using cryogenics, and they choose not to do this. The Japs call their process, in their beautician's shears, "ice tempered", and the process works as I've sharpened such with them remaining so after one year of almost daily use. Generally, cryogenics provides for a more general distribution of molecules, and removes the 'chunkiness' of the arrangement that exists prior to the process. You can think of it as a thorough mixing of ingredients in a cake, with the result being uniform throughout. Sometime in the future, when I gather up my 0-1 supply, I'm going to run experiments to test out the longevity, and upon conclusion I'll let those interested know the results.

 

[jerrywh]

Cooling 1550° .01 steel at that low of temp. creates extreme stresses. Big words don't change the results. I need convincing. There are some real smart engineers out there and I know a few. This is 2015. If it were possible to make a cutter better than we now have in a capitalist society I think it would have been done. I'm sure the military manufacturers would have what ever it would be.

 

[Ron Spokovich]

In response to 'jerrywh', the temperature is not 1550 degrees, it's at around 300 degrees below. Also, some steels done are often run through one or more tempering cycles after the sub-zero quench. As I said, all steels don't respond the same way, and a lot of this has been worked. I have a small, sharpened sample of BG-42, heat treated and sub-zero quenched and the process does work. The treatment was only don at 100 degrees below by the guy, now retired, that did all knives at Buck Knives when they were in Kalifornia. The lower temperature would work a little better, but it depends upon what you want to pay for, and your needs. It's up to you.

 

[DanM]

Cryo has been used by a number of knife makers for years i.e. Ed Caffrey,Ray Rogers,etc... There is a lot of real info if you use the right keywords and search the knife forums.
example http://www.knifenetwork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54761

 

[Doc Mark]

Adding longevity to a fine edge on a knife blade, and adding longevity to an engraving tool that takes heavy impacts several thousand times a minute may be two completely different animals.

 

[Addertooth]

My father and I always did sub zero quench on 154CM steel knives. It made for a more durable edge which was less likely to micro-chip. The Rockwell C tester did not indicate an increase in softness of the blade from sub zero quench, it imparted what knifemakers referred to as "toughness".

 

[Brian Marshall]

Only way to find out how it might work on O1 as engravers steel is gonna be to TRY IT!

I still use carbon steel gravers occasionally. Even a few of my favorite kitchen knives are made of older carbon steel.

PITA to hand dry 'em after you wash up, but still worth it for certain jobs. (Never put them in a dishwasher or sink and leave them overnight - as my ex discovered!)


Brian

 

[jerrywh]

There appears to be a misunderstanding here. We were talking about hardening 01 carbon steel not BG42. The quenching temp. of 01 carbon steel is 1550° F . That is the temp of the steel not the quench temp. I understand that the sub zero quench can have an effect on grain structure but I have my doubts that 01 can stand the stress at least in most cases. If it quenched successfully at minus 300° it would still have to be tempered or it would break at first impact. After it was tempered it would be no harder that it would be if it were hardened normally. It might be tougher to some degree but I doubt if it would exceed the properties of a high grade carbide. If it were better smarter people than me would have discovered this a long time ago. There a people who do nothing but this their whole lives. Never the less I will continue to use Cmax. Very few knife makers use 01 carbon steel. My knowledge is limited to the gun making field as a result my knowledge of steel is limited to the ones used in the gun making profession. That is very limited but 01 is a very common steel that I have worked with most of my life. I do a lot of heat treating. Almost on a daily basis.

 

[Brian Marshall]

I've no idea which carbon steel is in my kitchen knives, I did not make them... or my old gravers for that matter? I would guess there are (or were) dozens of kinds as well?

I just like the way both cut in certain situations. And the fact that you can "play" with the carbon steel gravers (bend them) to make "trick" gravers to get into difficult areas.

Something you cannot do with modern day exotic standard straight blanks... at least that I am aware of...


Brian

 

[silverchip]

I haven't tried subzero quenching for O1 but I do make springs out of it for pocket knives. I like the fact that it can be tweeked to make shapes you can't make out of high speed steel or carbide. The idea that you can improve toughness is appealing.

 

[Addertooth]

There appears to be a misunderstanding about sub-zero quench; perhaps it is the name's fault. You do a normal quench (typically oil for O1, then, after it reaches room temperature it is placed in a sub-zero environment. You don't go from cherry red to sub zero, this will crack many metals.