The very first hurdle, and set of stupid questions (among many, I'm sure).

[DWdame]

So I bought 2 halfhead handles and 2 gravers. One is a square graver, the other is a flat graver.

Silly me, I was thinking 'installation' would be straight-forward.

I read this, and these were my thoughts:

1) Why would you buy a pre-shaped graver, knowing you'll need to lop its head off?

2) Related to #1, why not lop the other side off? A.k.a., the side that just gets crammed into a piece of wood. :thinking:



First thoughts, post experimentation:

So far I've found that I can hold the flat graver in my hand and carve away at my scrap brass. Not very deeply, though. :clapping:


The square graver looks like it will cut deeply. Unlike the flat graver (which narrows into a tang) the square graver is uniform along its length. And since I don't have a bench grinder, this means I have a chance of actually installing at least the square graver into a handle. :banana:


So I should be able to lop off the end and drill the hole in the handle with my Dremel. I have small hands, so I'll be breaking off quite a bit of it, I'm sure. :biggrin: No injuries so far, but it's only been an hour.

 

[Brian Marshall]

No, you wouldn't lop off the presharpened point, you would stick the other end into the handle...

If you've got a Mizzy wheel or another stone wheel you can grind notches into the tang of the flat graver and either snap or bend it 'till it breaks at the length you want/need.

Therein lies a problem. You don't really know what you need - having never held a proper graver in your hand.

My advice would be to shorten it a little at a time 'till you learn what works well for you. You can't put it back...


Brian

 

[Gemsetterchris]

The best graver length including handle is near enough the length of your palm.
So, measure from the crease of your wrist to the start of your middle finger..then you can figure out how much goes in the handle & cut off the rest (from the tang end).
Then you need to grind down the pre-shaped end of the flat graver (without burning it). The square is ground differently & I expect you can find that info onsite.


These pics are courtesy of James Miller.

 

[DWdame]

Thanks Chris! That drawing helps.

This has all been hilarious so far. So, I managed to use my jewelers saw to cut part of the tang off the flat graver. I celebrated my cleverness too quickly, however, as it then refused to cut through any other parts of the graver. Only two saw blades died though, so it's okay. Then, I installed the graver in the handle - but it's about, oh, 3/4" too long still. Failure #1.

I had more hope for the square graver. I did manage to cut off the required amount of length with my jewelers saw, but then - tragically - it broke off into the handle when I tried to hammer it on. As a bonus, I somehow managed to break the tip off the pre-shaped part. So now I have the opportunity to learn how to make a handle from a sacrificial broom, and also how to re-grind the square graver back to fighting form. Fortune abounds!

 

[silverchip]

The tang end does not need to be hard so anneal it so it doesn't break while installing in in the handle.When you grind the other end be careful not to overheat it. Hold a wet paper towel close to the point to keep it cool.Do nice job of finishing it so it doesn't look ragged and carelessly ground, you will like your tools more if they are well made.

 

[Red Green]

Ok, I was thinking if you are willing to go to that much trouble to have a carbon steel graver why not use an old nail? So I did, I ground it to fit in a Lindsay fixture and it works just fine. So just find an old nail and you'll be in business.

Bob

 

[Gemsetterchris]

I highly recommend you get yourself a lyndsay template system set.
You will then have an idiot proof way to get your gravers of any shape perfect every time. Also with his push handles you can easily adjust the length of them whenever you like in seconds.

 

[hybridfiat]

I highly recommend you get yourself a lyndsay template system set.
You will then have an idiot proof way to get your gravers of any shape perfect every time. Also with his push handles you can easily adjust the length of them whenever you like in seconds.

The best suggestion yet. It takes the guesswork out of sharpening till you can 'think' for yourself. Badly sharpened gravers will prevent you from getting past even the starting line.

 

[Marcus Hunt]

DWdame, I didn't understand what you were on about until I looked at that so-called "tutorial". What they are doing is just plain stupid! Yes, you shorten the engraver from the tang end not the face, duh!!! What is this guy on? That being said, all gravers require shaping after installation. The only guys who can get away with minimal shaping are the copper plate engravers.

Bob, I do hope you are being facetious! I know we joke about the top engravers being able to engrave with a rusty nail but in reality they are often way too soft and not all steel can be hardened to retain a cutting point. I was once staying with a stocker friend of mine in Maine and the writer, the late Michael MacIntosh, came to visit for a few days. He was kicking his heels in the workshop so picked up a piece of steel and decided to make himself a screwdriver for his shotgun. He spent about 3 days shaping it and making a nice handle but the first time he tried it out it the blade folded like butter and even when he tried hardening it that wouldn't work either. Conclusion: tool steels are designed for making tools with, nails are designed to hold bits of wood together!

 

[DWdame]

DWdame, I didn't understand what you were on about until I looked at that so-called "tutorial". What they are doing is just plain stupid! Yes, you shorten the engraver from the tang end not the face, duh!!! What is this guy on?

YAY I'm not crazy!! Whew. I suspect the tutorial was more an advert for the DVD on sharpening...

My problem is that the sum total of all my tools are from either a) leathercrafting or b) beginning (as in one class) metalwork. I do not have a bench grinder. I'm a 29 yr old chick in a studio apt. Up until this point in my life, I confess that I have not had the need for a bench grinder. I do have a Dremel. But I use it as a drill press - and up to this point have not used any of the 347 attachments it came with. There is probably some manner of grinder accessory I could acquire for it, I suppose.

This is why I struggle with the 'old school' methods. Bench stones I have! (for my round knife) Power equipment = not have.

All I wish to do is engrave simple surface details on soft metals including: copper, brass, and nickel silver. I'm thinking push graver, not H&C? At some point, I will probably get the Meek book & a Crocker tool. And then I'll ride my horse down to the post office (not really).

And while I'm quite sure the knowledge in the book is worth every penny, my bank account would prefer I borrow it from the library. Good thing the only copy at the Houston Public Library is 'missing' and actually in Atascocita, Tx.

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Okay, copper plate engraving for printing is a very specialist area. Tools are set very low with little or no heel. For this type of engraving on soft, flat plates that's fine but for anything else you really need a bit of lift an a heal on your graver. In order to do this you have to be able to sharpen your tools and, unless you are an exceptional student, doing this by hand and eye, without a sharpening fixture and with nobody who knows how to sharpen to show you how, I don't like to say it but.... you are on a hiding to nothing!!! Even if you were lucky enough to find someone to show you, you need to spend hours and hours, month after month until you can sharpen your tools the way you want and the way that works for you. AND THEN.....guess what your whet stone will have worn and you'll either a) have to get it dressed or b) throw it away and get a new one because you'll struggle to replicate the geometry that works for you! Hand sharpening can be learned but it's incredibly difficult; take it from someone who did it for nearly a quarter of a century!!!

Save yourself a HUGE amount of grief and get a sharpening fixture. GRS' one works best with a power hone but Lindsay does a kit including diamond stones for a very reasonable price (the bonus is you'll be able to sharpen carbide gravers too so this includes Lindsay's carbalt or GRS' C-max materials).

Using Lindsay's template system you'll be able to shape the back of the graver too as well as the face and heels. I don't know how long this would take using just bench stones though, perhaps there is someone else that uses the system that can give us the benefit of their experience of setting up a graver entirely by hand? Even in the distant past, engravers ground away the backs of their tools so it's something you cannot avoid really. Shaping the tool helps you see the point better, helps the graver release from the metal easier as it springs (this is really important if you hand push) the bur from the cut and c) this helps retain the point of your graver rather than keep breaking it off.

Everyone I have ever known who has used a Crocker has not been happy with it. No doubt it works after a fashion but there are much better fixtures out there today.

If you can, invest in a power hone of some sort (even a secondhand one). They are clean and quiet but can be a bit slow. Using a GRS Powerhone and the Lindsay universal template takes me about 1/2 hour to 40 mins to shape a carbalt blank to a working graver. Tony White does a much faster hone and some guys claim they can get this time down to 10 minutes! At the very least you might find you need to get a cheap bench grinder to do the initial shaping.

I am very sorry, but there are some things with engraving that are unavoidable and always have been. In the past the apprentices would have done the donkey work doing the initial shaping of the tools for their master on a hand turned grinding wheel. So unless you have access to someone to do it for you, you are going to have to steel yourself to certain unavoidable mechanical processes even if you are hand pushing.

in conclusion then: Unless you learn to sharpen your graver properly you will not be able to engrave anything. In the beginning sharpening is your NUMBER 1 priority. A sharpening fixture will save you months of grief and make you able to replicate proven graver geometries that work.

Good luck and have fun and keep those Band Aids handy

 

[Red Green]

Yes Marcus it was just a demonstration, actually the nail works fine, it's what is known as a 'concrete nail' in the old days, it's made from tool steel and should be tempered to not shatter from impact. The oval I cut in the last picture (first hand pushing I've done in a year) has shading lines in it but it doesn't show, I think it would be serviceable for soft metal. My point was to show that it is not what you call a chunk of steel it is how it is sharpened that makes it a graver, if I can get it in a Lindsay template and it will hold an edge it is a graver. Give me a finely made graver blank and a bench stone and I doubt I have much more than disappointment for some time.

DW, what you are going through is why so many just give up, I hope you can get a graver out of what you have but I have a feeling it will not work out. If you want to just try engraving without doing more than shoving the graver into a handle Lindsay sells a pre-sharpened 'Carbalt' 116 degree square graver. If you don't jam it into something or drop it on a hard surface it will stay sharp for some time on soft metal. It may give you enough time to decide if you wish to pursue engraving further. You can minimize the cost of putting together a useable engraving kit but you will need to be sure about what you purchase and why. I may get into trouble for saying this but 'old school' is a waste of time and money, those tools are not easy to use and a beginner should avoid them. In the end you will find modern tooling will serve you better at a lower cost, simply because you can use them.

Bob