Critique Request Tattoo design for my daughter

[Kevin P.]

Arnaud, it's the "nature of the beast' (I'm not sure what that means) but in this instance it means you get a lot more than you asked for.

I know a young woman jeweler who has lot of tattoo and they (it all may be part of the same tattoo) all look great. The skill level is incredible
I'm not going to get one myself but it's an interesting cultural phenomenon over here.
I see lots during the course of my work and some are really terrific art.
Hope your daughter gets something she likes.
Kevin P.

 

[JakeW]

I like your design better. I have tattoo's and have even done some cover ups also.
Any cover up has to be bigger than the original and has to be darker than the original. You can't cover up black with any other color than black. But your design with all its fine detail would not cover up the thick outline of the horse. You will still be able to see some of the outline of the horse. A good tattoo artist should be able to take your design and change things to get the best tattoo that will cover up the horse. I have been thinking of getting some scroll tattoo work done myself.

 

[dave gibson]

Arnaud: Glad I found this post, I have been a full time, professional tattooer for 30 years, please feel free to contact me with ANY questions and concerns. First off, your design is beautiful, as always , however it's probably not the best design for this cover-up, as it is drawn. Keep in mind that when you put one design on top of another, the old tattoo doesn't just disappear. As shown you would at least have a darker area where the old tattoo is. The drawing ,as is, would probably be beyond the ability of the vast majority of the worlds tattooers, even though they wont admit it, lying is a skill most tattooers hold higher than art. To work with the design you've drawn, heavier outlines and areas of black shading would be my first suggestion. As is, all the open (white) areas would still show the old tattoo, lines going the wrong way, popping out where it shouldn't be. It can be done but it will require an extremely talented artist. Most of what has been suggested here is good , like what Dave said about a laser removal, this is not uncommon for cover ups anymore. What Fred said about white or flesh colored ink is right on. I was not extremely impressed with the link you included but I'm not the one getting tattooed here. I do know tattooers all over the world (exept Belgium ), I could ask around and probably find some more artists you could check out . I know of one guy in Switzerland and another in Germany who could do this properly and I'm sure I can find more. Another option to consider would be to have the horse overhauled and detailed and add the scrollwork around it, it's not at all a bad tattoo, it just could be better. Though some cover-ups are totally successful,generally speaking, a cover-up will get a grade that's about 5% to 10% lower than if it weren't a cover-up. Check it yourself, take a pencil drawing of the horse then trace the scroll over top of it in ink. Pencil & pen will represent the old & new tattooing. Another thing to keep in mind is that you'll probably wont have but this one chance to get this thing right so make sure you're confident with your operator. Hope this helps and please don't hesitate to contact me if you have any other concerns. I'd be real interested in seeing this finished, we don't get to do these things too often and it's usually used for background. Hope this helps and please don't hesitate to contact me if you have any other concerns. Best of luck to both of you...Dave

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Arnaud

I can't help you with the tattoo as I know nothing about them or what design will or won't work.

But it was interesting you should mention Maori tattoo or "Moko" as it is called by the Maori name.

Traditionally they differed from other cultures because they actually cut, or gouged/scratched, the lines out using a single point tool that were tapped with a small stick (hammer and chisel). They then developed "liners" and made up multi pointed tools that were typically made of bone. With these they could keep evenly spaced lines much easier. As far as I'm aware Maori were the only ones to use this technique as all other cultures used the dot technique (bulino??)

If you look at the old paintings by Goldie and Lindauer....or even the old photos...........you will see that the faces look carved. And they literally were. Even the pigments they rubbed in were different and they almost have a greenish hue. As they grew older the moko and skin around it almost took on the texture of tree bark.

When the European arrived Moko fell out of favor for several generations but is making a come back like all the tattoo arts around the world. Some of it is quite beautiful. But now they use the machines and everything is the dot technique.

Eye watering stuff!!!

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Chapi]

Wow, you don't look on the forum for one day and look what you miss! I agree with Dave Gibson about casting your net a little further. He mentioned Switzerland which was what I was thinking with Filip Leu at http://leufamilyiron.com/site/contact.php . However, I do think that scroll can be used as a sucessful coverup and here's how to do it: open up your background or the negetive space in your design. It is within the black of the space between the scrolls and leaves that you will be able to hide the original tattoo. Mr. Gibson's idea of tracing over a photo of the original tattoo will give you an excellent idea of what changes need to be made. If you do this, be sure to take that to the artist so that they can see what you are talking about. I also agree that white is not going to work well as a coverup. Now, if she were to get it in a darker color, like blue or green, then it will be very easy to cover up, as those colors are very similar to old tattoo ink and will hide it without the tattoo being too dark.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

@Kevin, thank you for your support on this one. And as you say we don’t have to love tattoos and we will have to find a high skill level tattooist for this. And I think we found one now.

@Jake, I like scroll designs myself too, so why not for tattoos? Of course the way I executed the design can not be tattooed, but when I ad some Gaussian blur to my design and print is, it looks quite a lot like something that can be tattooed in my opinion. Sure we will need a high skill levelled tattooist for this.

@Dave, glad you found this post. I understand the tattoo will have to be darker than I have draw it. After all a design for engraving not even looks like an engraving, so probably the same when using it for a tattoo. Thank you for liking my designs.
I have added another picture of my design that I think comes closer to how it will look when tattooed. And indeed more black. But in a way that is up to the tattooist to transate my design into an tattoo.
I will show the tattoo here when finished. Thanks again for your advise.

@Andrew, sure you know more about Moko and the Maori Art. My daughter however is not Maori. However if we can’t find a high level skill tattooist to do my design, perhaps I will could change the style more like a Moko design the way it inspired you to engrave. But perhaps my design could work too. We will have to find out and of course I’m a willing laboratory rabbit.
And sure you are right that it is a pity that old cultures disappear.
I only mentioned the Maori to illustrate that scrolls for tattooing are not that wrong


@Chapi, thanks for jumping in. My daughter want this tattoo using only blacks, indeed when laying both one above the other, I see some leaves could better be adjusted so they fit in the darkest zones. That is no big deal, but as I saw the design of the tattooist, it did even cover less of the “horse” tattoo than mine. But you are right it can be better. The link of the Swiss tattooist looks great and it seems he could do the job.
Nothing is already decided till now,


Thank you all for your input on this, You gave me a lot more information than I asked for.
I only wanted to know if there were no errors in the design I made, no matter if it is for engraving or tattooing.

arnaud

 

[Jane]

Arnaud,

Maybe if you could show your drawing with the placement of the horse under your design some of these folks could help tweak your designs in weak areas where the tattoo shows thru the most?

Just a thought.....

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Jane, yes I will do that, I have done it for myself but not already posted that picture. Some leaves need to move a bit if I want the design cover all the horse oulines.
And some of you do not encourage the use of white ink, but as far as I know something about tattoo, it can also higher the contrast of the design and cover the minimal lines that are not covered with blacks.
Having the horse tattoo removed using laser, is something that also can cause some problems, we have talked with the tattooist abut that and she was not a big fan of laser removal.

arnaud

arnaud

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Arnaud, great design but please don't let your daughter rush into this. I realise from this thread that you are very happy with the design but you are getting some very good advice and need to do a little reassessment.

I have one of those "black sploges" our Aussie cousin was talking about. Many years ago now I went to a tattooist because I'd seen a fantastic celtic design in a magazine. The tattooist advised me against it because the lines were to close together. Idiot that I was, a couple of years later, and living in a different town I drew up a design from the Book of Kells and went to a different tattoist (conveniently forgetting what the first tattooist said). He'd already done a Green Man for me (*another story) and was happy to proceed with my design but unlike the previous tattoist didn't warn me about the lines bleeding into one another 10 or 15 years later. Now you can hardly see the design unless you look really close up and it looks just like a dark blue triangle.

Your shade lines might look fine at first but will not in the future. If you look at the Maori/tribal type tattoos none are shaded like we shade on metal and I seriously doubt our type of shading will work on skin.

Another thing to consider is that skin moves. Coming back to my *Green Man tattoo, when my arm was up and supported so the tattooist could work on it, it was the shape I was after and just as I'd drawn it. However, when my arm is hanging normally the face elongates. To me this isn't a problem but it could be to some people; so how are you going to ensure that that the scrolls do not go out of shape and ruin the design?

We are all adults and know that tattoos are permanent (and so are the scars if you have them removed) but sometimes we get a bit fixated on the present and not the future. What looks great now can look ugly in the future. It makes me think of young girls who have a lovely tattoo around their navel. Yeah it looks great until they have kids, or these wallys' that have these huge piercings in their ears; their earlobes are going to look fabulous (not) when they're old folks.

Personally, for a cover up job like this I would study and use some other form of scrolls that aren't shaded. Why not make her a nice pendant with this design on instead?

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Marcus, thanks for jumping in. No we won’t hurry on this one. My daughter is not someone that changes here ideas quite often. The horse however is tattooed after here best friend, a Welch Pony died.
So sure that was not the perfect moment to decide having a tattoo, but she already was convinced having a lot of tattoo’s before that. I tried to redraw the Pony a better way for a cover up, but she has her personal reasons to get rid of this one.
She wants more tattoos but not in a way as the look like individual pictures, so she want to use scrolls with some open spaces. In these open spaces she want to integrate some Jofra designs. I don’t know if you know Jofra sketchbook

And at first I was not involved that much on this, but when looking at the scroll design the tattooist made, I had to.

And yes as we all getting older, we don’t look very much “the way we were made†but I don’t care as otherwise we would be dead. As everyone want to get old but most don’t want to look like that.
And you are probably right about the shading lines that they could look good at first, but that they will look different later. However, the tattooist has a lot of experience and told us that this has to do with the dept the ink is going into the skin. He has a special technique for that.
He says he can draw the smallest lines at 0,25mm without getting blurred later.

arnaud

 

[Marcus Hunt]

He says he can draw the smallest lines at 0,25mm without getting blurred later.

Is he absolutely sure about this Arnaud? Perhaps Dave can advise on this? I was told when I had my tattoos done that the skin is constantly renewing itself and, if we ever lived long enough (which we don't) eventually the tattoo would fade completely. This constant renewing of the skin is what causes the tattoos to eventually blur and not the ink itself. In other words there is no such thing as a non blurring/fading tattoo. I could be totally wrong, in which case I apologise, but this is what I was given to believe.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Marcus, I can only tell what the tattooist told me. They use 3 needles, as 1 does not work. When tattooing with one needle, it will cut the skin, so 3 is minimal.
About the blur, I was told that this has to do with the dept of the needle impact. When too deep you get blur.
Sure I’m not a specialist on this, just what I was told.
And we have visited other tattooists, but they did not want to do scroll, not because it can’, but they were not able to draw them correctly.
And I think that is one of the major problems with tattoo, a lot of them can copy paste a design, but drawing a nice design is totally different.
I don’t blame the tattooist for not being able to draw a scroll the right way, she can draw things I can’t.
But as I have learned some about drawing a nice scroll here, I now see lots of bad scrolls around me. That is the other side of this medal of course.

arnaud

 

[Chapi]

As far as the lifespan of a tattoo, that is really a matter for the skill of the tattooist. It is well within the realm of possibility to do the design you drew up at the size you plan to do it. The shading lines will most likely be converted to more of a soft "airbrush" type of shading, like what you would see on a pencil drawing. Tattooing is all about making a design flow with the body, and I can hardly imagine a design style that flows better than floral scrollwork. The reason it hasn't caught on is really a matter of how difficult it is to draw. I think we can all agree that nobody just picks up a pencil and draws scrolls perfect first time. It requires study, and that is usually where you lose your average tattooist. Too bad you aren't here in Southern California, this should be a "homerun" of a coverup. The scroll that you have drawn is 1000% better than what the original tattooist came up with and I believe that with some background shading(where you would remove and stipple on an engraving) would really help the coverup.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Thank you Chapi giving me some self confidence on this idea making a scroll design for tattooing. I think a lot comments I received on this tread are telling the same, it can be done but only by a high skilled tattooist.
I understand about the shading lines, that they can not be executed on a tattoo the way I draw them for engraving. That the shadow lines will look more like air brush.
The closest I could manipulate my design is using some Gaussian blur on is in PS.

Thanks again for your support.

arnaud

 

[D.M.]

May be tatooist can simply make a soft rasterized shades rather than "lines"? It will cover up better if he(she) will adopt already existing shades of an old tatoo. As far as it is NOT an engraving why should one stick to the engraving shading?

 

[shovelrider]

Arnaud, I can't find the Jofra sketchbook. Can you help. Thanks...

 

[shovelrider]

Arnaud, I found it. The spelling was wrong it's Johfra. Thanks...

 

[dave gibson]

Marcus is absolutely right about the bluring process of a tattoo. The only thing that will stop a tattoo from bluring is cremation. Remember what I said about the lying skills of this industry. Any one who would turn down a scroll design, just because they can't draw one , should find a different job. The number of needles is not important, though I'm not a big fan of fine line tattooing, I have professional single needle tattoos that are 30+ years old and still very readable. Like what Chapi said about the "airbrush" type shading would be necessary and the detail shading lines could be brought out from that. Add to that the shading "behind" the design, :thumbs up:
So my best advice would be, #1, fix up,the horse and frame around it with scrolls, that would yield a look like western leather tooling or gun engraving. #2, If she has to get rid of the horse, laser. Even this leaves some scaring but it is less visible than leaving the old tattoo.#3, Go to Switzerland, Filip is definately one of the best tattoo artists the world has known, astonishing cover ups.

The concept and the design are great, the scroll design will make for a great tattoo, I've it's the cover-up part that brings about a new dimension. Everyone in this business prefers working on blank skin, just like engravers wouldn't want to work on metal that is pitted with rust for instance.

Well I could definitely go on and on about this but I think from this point it will probably be up to the artist and client and you'll most likely find a different approach with each one. When someone says they have this great new technique,,,,,,hhmmm

I think you said she has or plans more tattoos. Usually people with multiple tattooing are more realistic about cover-up results and often don't mind that a ghost image of the old tattoo remains. Since we haven't met ,I don't know how she would feel about this but she has to understand that a cover-up will never be an A+ tattoo.

On the most part you've gotten some good and accurate advice here,so when the time comes to make a decision (and you/ she will know when) it will be an educated and most importantly confident decision.

Another suggestion I should add here is similar to what Chapi said about adding color. I know you said she didn't want any color but an opaque grey, b&w mix, could be used in place of color to hide the remaining ghost image within the new design, add to that some white hilights... that could make for a really stunning tattoo. This approach should be within the abilities of many more tattooers closer to you geographically. Then again if you have to explain to the artist how to do the tattoo, you're probably talking to the wrong person.

So there's definitely more than one way to skin a cat, or your daughter. Please contact me if I can help further.....good luck, Dave

P.S.Hey Chapi, we better be careful, what if scrolls became the next big fad like tribal You say it's too hard to draw for most tattooers but so is Celtic and look at all the hum-bug Celtic tattoos out there. At least for now, you,me & Danny will be the only ones that know how to do it right, then somebody else will come along and make all the money with it. dg

 

[Chapi]

Already happening Dave. I had a girl come with a tattoo of scrollwork that was on my business card that she got done somewhere else, and they couldn't even trace it right. So now she's figured out that maybe you should go to the guy that drew the thing in the first place. She will be taxed accordingly.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Dave thank you for the extensive reply. Indeed I think I have a lot of good information now.
I will keep you all informed how this proceeds. But as you understand we won’t hurry on that.
And if we have to visit Filip in Switzerland for that, we will.

I also think scroll design is a nice way to get tattooed, even if it is not that obvious a tattooist is able to draw a nice scroll. Perhaps a market for us who can draw nice scrolls.
The other advantage of scroll tattoos is that they always can be expanded by new scrolls

arnaud