Critique Request Spyderco Delica with english scroll

[Mario Sarto]

I am happy with this so far, as it is my first attempt on a knife and on English scroll. I was astonished of this kind of engraving - looks easy on a picture, but doing it, hey it is a lot of work (ok - for me)!
I am sure there are things i could have done better - only didn't see it anymore...
So i need an eye-opener - critique is welcome!
Regards, Mario.

edit: added a better picture...

 

[MICHAEL]

Looks Freakin' Awesome! Thanks for showing. :thumbs up:

 

[Mario Sarto]

Thank you, Michael!

 

[jetta77]

Well done Mario!:thumbs up:

 

[KCSteve]

Wow - I really like your center rose! :thumbs up:

 

[monk]

mario, that is just a beautiful job. no other way to describe it.

 

[TyG]

I think it is stunning.

As a saddler and carver I look for framed focus on my work and I border these focus pieces.

I think maybe a border might highlight the lovely work you have done and have accentuated it.

But I think it looks beautiful anyway. Ty

 

[Bunic]

Mario,

Superb! But I also agree with Ty on the framing border.

Nice photos, too!

 

[John B.]

Well done, Mario.

 

[Mario Sarto]

Thank you for the kind words. I will think about the border - still have the backside free
Regards, Mario.

 

[mitch]

Okay, Mario, since you said it was alright to offer a critique publicly, here goes*...

In no particular order of importance, here are a few of my impressions-

For the size of the scrolls, your main lines are too thick/heavy. They make the 'spines' too dark & wide for the 'weight' of the rest of the design. English scroll is a delicate style.

The scrolls should lightly touch by one line width wherever they meet (which is a good rule for any style). You've left too much space between them in too many places, then you were forced to fill in the excess space with unattractive little pieces. Sometimes it can take quite a few drafts to get the scrolls to both fit the space AND fit with each other correctly. In this case, you probably could have fit at least one more scroll around the perimeter of your main scrolls.

In the group on the left, your design originates from a main scroll (which is good), get smaller, but then further to the left the scrolls get bigger again. Scrolls should start large, then progressively get smaller as they get farther from the main scroll. It is very, very seldom permissible to violate this rule- usually only as a result of the shape of the space expanding (even then it's almost always better to break the design into two parts).

The main scroll in the right group is not filled densely enough. In other words, the 'leaves' inside the scroll are too big and make this scroll appear much lighter in tone/color than the surrounding scrolls. A little of that is unavoidable- bigger scrolls will always require bigger leaves inside- but you should try to achieve a fairly consistent tone in the overall pattern without any scrolls or areas being too light or dark.

Your scrolls end very inconsistently at their centers. Their size should be proportionate to the overall size of the scroll itself (bigger scroll- bigger center, smaller scroll- smaller center), but the design/shape should look nearly identical to all the others. Learn to adjust the internal details so they leave enough room to finish the scroll consistently. How the scrolls come to an end is one of the more noticeable features and it's important that they all match.

Speaking of inconsistency, the tiny detail 'feathers' (John Rohner calls these "Dooflinkies") around the outside of the scroll patterns are about 5 different styles. These don't have to all be identical (in fact, they shouldn't be), but they must all be of the same style. Take the time to study other engravers', experiment some on your own, then settle on ONE style for any single piece of work. These tiny figures are commonly neglected as mere background filler, but they can have a high degree of artistic value when done well. I could probably teach a day long class on these alone- styles, layout, flow, etc.

I've attached a photo of my own style of English scroll (adapted from Winston Churchill- who I consider the best at it, with a touch of Lynton McKenzie, mixed up with my own impressions). It's far from perfect, but should give a better idea of what I'm trying to say.

To end on a brighter note- The little cabbage rose & flowers were very nicely done. Personally, I never use them, but certainly recognize they can be a delightful feature on some pieces.

That's all for now- I've actually been mulling over offering a class on English scroll. Its understated elegance make it a versatile style that is ideally suited for embellishing almost any object and should be in every well-rounded engraver's repertoire.


(*To anyone who remembers the recent debacle over criticism- I checked with Mario by PM first, and he said he was cool with it.)

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Okay, time to chip in.... Mitch, I agree with virtually everything you say right up to where you start to describe the "outside work" which you describe as "feathers/dooflinkies".

Where most engravers (who haven't been taught the correct construction from the off) go wrong is that they don't really understand what they are supposed to do or what they are there for so they just stick any old thing around the edge of the scrolls.

English fine scroll (aka small scroll) has a couple of things in it's favour. Firstly, it is meant to be seen with the naked eye and, secondly, it is designed to be looked at as an overall design. By this I mean when one looks at a tree the eye looks at the overall object and doesn't (unless you want it to) focus on individual leaves. But like the tree, scrollwork is organic in nature. If you make anything in or around it repetitive it becomes dull and boring. When correctly executed it is one of the most wonderful forms of scroll in my opinion but when it's wrong it couldn't be more dreadful.

When cutting the inside work of the scrolls there must be variety (you describe how it should be done very well Mitch). There are basically 2 elements that go on the inside of a scroll; a tendril or a leaf. If the pattern goes tendril, tendril, tendril, tendril or leaf, leaf, leaf, leaf or tenril, leaf, tenril, leaf, tenril, leaf, tenril, leaf it becomes repetitive and therefore boring to look at. Mix it up to tendril, tenril, leaf, tenril, leaf, leaf, tendril and it breaks the pattern and gives interest to the overall design.

Now this is where I disagree with Mitch; the same applies to the outside work. There are as he says 4 or 5 different elements (there is a specific one for use in the valley of V where scrolls touch by the way) and use them all. Again, take a tree in Spring. Not every leaf breaks at the same time. There are various stages the tree goes through and one leaf will break before another which is still emerging from the bud. Outside work is just like this.

The purpose of outside work is to both even up an edge (often the scrolls won't meet the line perfectly evenly or there might be an awkward spot that needs filling) and soften any harshness. To accomplish this the outside work needs to run up to an imaginary line. If the elements which form it vary this line softens and they eye hardly notices it. If on the other hand all the elements are the same it becomes stark and to a degree, hard when it should be like foliage rippling in the breeze. Just like scrolls do, it grows in the opposite direction to the scroll it grows from.

Sorry for going on, perhaps this picture will help illustrate what I mean. By the way, the flowers are very nice Mario.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

(*To anyone who remembers the recent debacle over criticism- I checked with Mario by PM first, and he said he was cool with it.)

Hi Mitch

I was going to let this one go................ but unfortunately I don't want other forum members to get the wrong impression about this whole critique deal.

Critique and criticism are always welcome when the person asks for it as Mario has.............no extra permission is needed first because it is already given by the author of the thread.

When we walk into a gun/knife/jewellerey show we don't pick up another engravers work and immediately start telling them what is wrong with it. Especially if there are others at the table looking at their work. This is universally considered to be bad form and bad manners.................the forum is no different.

I don't want to re-litigate the whole thing................ but I do want everyone to be clear on the subject.

Mario.......a beautiful knife. Your engraving work has come a long way since we first met on the forum

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Mario Sarto]

Well, this one is hard for me to explain in English, i try - what Andrew said: i was asking for critique. I was hoping for it - this is one of the reasons i am here and why i am loving this cafe. And like most who are fascinated by engraving, i can take stick (is this correct?) for my scratches. As you have seen, i posted an extra picture from which i hoped, you can see every little mistake i have made...

...the results (the answers) i got, they are exactly what i was looking for. Mitch and Marcus, thank you very much. The other posters also - your comments showed me, i am on the right way.

I have great respect to you, who made a living from engraving. My goal is to put out engravings, you professionals will say "he isn't a shame to the engravers". Every little step to reach a good level is a joy for me and i wish you guys by my side (virtually).

Regrettably we have 100 degrees here and they feel like 120 (no wind), so my last brain is melting in the heat. However, i have managed to draw a little picture, please have a look at it. Is it a way to cut a tendril?

Before i cut the backside, i'll do a scribble and post it here. I will try to implement all your good tips!
Regards, Mario.

 

[eastslope]

Looks really good from where I am sitting. Thanks for sharing with us.

 

[metalchipper]

This is good

:yes

I have an English scroll job coming up and have been studying the style for a while now. This thread has been helpful.

I will post up some pictures later, if I can get a good shot of an old double external hammer shot gun. It has tiny scrolls, the largest complete is 6.5mm or .255" from end to end oval.

Later dudes and girls.

Mark

 

[metalchipper]

Old English Scroll

I know we could clean this pattern up but I thought it is good for study.

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Mario, there are a few ways of producing English scroll but they generally don't fall in the pattern you describe. Working towards the head of the scroll 1st cut = 1st blue cut, 2nd cut = green cut, 3rd cut (now we start getting into stylistic differences) = red (but start it further back like the last blue cut), 4th cut = blue. As I say, there are a few variations on a theme but if you start with this sequence you can't go far wrong. Hope this helps.

 

[ddushane]

I've enjoyed this thread, I love what you did with the knife Mario, I don't understand everything that has been said here and the critiquing , I love the small scroll or English scroll, I would love to see a closer image of the last one you posted Marcus. I really want to learn how to do this type of engraving right. Thank all of you for your comments.

Dwayne

 

[Mario Sarto]

I don't understand everything that has been said...

Dwayne like me - i am working on that!
Mark, thank you for the pictures. After watching it, i made little changes at the anatomy of my scrolls.
Regards, Mario.