So What Represents Professional Quality Work?

[Jon C. Dake]

Just to get an idea as to how much further we beginners need to get with our engraving skills, what represents professional quality engraving from the standpoint of execution. Is it no mistakes that can be seen with the naked eye or no mistakes under some degree of magnification, and if under magnification, how much - 5, 10, 15, 20, etc.?

 

[Barry Lee Hands]

Jon, In my opinion professional quality means satisfied customers. And sometimes I have seen that really good engraving looks best with no magnification.
I often wish I had the eyes and mind of a child to look at my own work, so I could really look beyond my own technical self critcism and see how it actually appears.

 

[Glenn]

Wasn't it Lynton Mckenzie who said that you should not look at engraving with magnification?

 

[Barry Lee Hands]

Yes, I believe he did Glenn, as have others.
If we view engraving as Art, then a piece of art can be a single elegant line, executed with great precision, or, hundreds cut with ragged abandon, with no regard for technique. If the composition is strong, it may have appeal to many, within the constraints of personal taste.
If we are speaking of modern engraving, what Rick Simmons calls "NeoAmerican", then technique may be considered as important under high magnification as is composition. This is part of the "structure" of modern engraving, this expectation of high technical achievement.
This technical and stylistic conformity shows that modern american engraving is maturing and developing its own temper, and may have the strength to stand on its own as a "School". It is a very exciting time to be an engraver.
However, we must be careful that that brilliant execution does not become simply a matter of successfully duplicating previous sets of rules, as it has in other schools.

It seems all great art through the ages shares one thing: strong composition, whether done with tedious planning, or lightly,in a moment of inspiration.

 

[pilkguns]

Very good words by Barry Lee. and I would agree, if it looks good with the naked eye then thats it. But for the original poster, I would ask whom do you mean by your question. As Barry Lee said, if your customer is sasitified, then you did professional work for that person. Good enough.

Trying to draw a line in the sand and say what is professional in terms of quality, that is judged by a knowledge public (very few TBH) or better yet a set of peers, then that is laid out in the FEGA standards for Proffessional Engraver status, which for the most part is well thought and well intentioned set of parameters. I could quibble with this or that, and various interpetations, but overall it is a guide to what is considered past the beginner stage of engraving.

 

[Ken Hurst]

I have never applied for pro. status with FEGA and I am a charter member. I also have been engraving firearms for 48 years fulltime --- I guess this means my clients are happy -- Just never felt a need to apply.

 

[pilkguns]

Ken,
I was not trying to say that was a definition to be used to determine anyones status, as stated there are lots of great and small things I could quibble about, but will not. There are those that don't have Pro status that are certainly worthy of it such as yourself and then there are those who have it, but whose work is not up to the standards outlined. Such is the case for any human endeavor. C'est la Vie. I was only saying that for a beginner who wanted to know what areas he might be judged in, that those outlines there were a good indicator as to what was expected of good work.

regards to you,
Scott

 

[Ken Hurst]

Hi Scott --- Yeah. I agree with you. I was just stating that one didn't have to have a rating to be a pro in this field. Your point wasn't being argued --- just thought I'd throw that comment into the wash. Alls good, Ken

 

[Ray Cover]

I don't know exactly what your looking for Jon but here are my thoughts on it.

I think it depends on what you want to do with your engraving as a "professional".

Right now my sister is learning to engraving and she is sort of doing an apprentiship (for lack of a better word) under me. She is an extremely good looking girl, she has my name to help her along, and she is a far more talented artist than I ever was. She would have no trouble marketing pure manure as fine engraving and make a fine living.

That brings up a point I want to make here. Marketing plays a big role in any "profession". I have seen guys make a living with very low qaulity work because they were either good salesmen, had no scrupples or both. I once had a man come up to me at a show and ask if I would look at a knife he bought and give him my oppinion of it. I told him up front (before he ever took it out of his pouch) that he may not like my answer but I would give him my oppinion. He went on to tell me all the credentials of the engraver and all the companies he had engraved for, lauded all the guys accomplishments. Then he handed me the knife. It was pretty rough work. It had all kinds of flats and elbows the shading was very inconsistent, full of overcuts and tailing nicks. The borders were ragged and wavy. It just was not good work, especially from someone with the credentials that engraver was supposed to have (I had never heard of the guy). It was marketted to this guy as if it were Lynton level work and he bought into it. He left my table quite upset after I pointed out everything I saw in the work (that in my oppinion should not have been there).


My sister ask me the same question about when to take on jobs regarding her own work my advice to her was this.

"Wait until you are good enough to get the correct response from collectors, not "customers" but collectors, those who are in the know." I went on to tell her, " The response you want to hear the first year you debute your work is,'Dang where has this girl been hiding..wonderful work.' The response you really don't want is, 'Hey not bad, your coming along. One of these days your gonna be really good.'"

I told her this because I care about her career as an artist. She can impress the hell out of people from the word go and have an almost instant career doing the type of works she likes once she starts.

...or she can jump in too early and spend the next several years trying to overcome a mediocre impression she left with those who are serious collectors. That option leaves her struggling with low pay from people who don't really appreciate her work and just want something cheap so they can have a false pride in having something "engraved". They really don't care if it was engraved well. This leaves her frustrated because she is not getting to do the type of work she has a heart's desire to do and she is breaking her back to keep the bills paid.

Scott is correct on the technical point of the matter. If you are making money as an engraver you technically are a professional engraver. You may be a crappy profesional engraver but a professional no less.

But I think the better question to ask is this. "What impression do I want to make on my clientel".

The impression you make with your work has a lot to do with your own attitude toward your work. There are two phrases that irritate the snot out of me. When I hear it from my kids it just makes my blood boil. One is "I can't" and the other is "thats good enough". If you have a "thats good enough" attitude toward your work that is exactly the type of work you will produce and the kind of impression you will leave with those who view it. On the other hand, If you have an attitude of striving for excellence you will produce excellent work and your will leave that impression.

I have also ran into self dilluded engravers who thought way more of their work than the work itself could live up to. In their mind they had an attitude of excellence but what was coming out of their heart was "good enough" (or in some cases not ). THat is where objectivity comes in. If you have trouble being objective with your own work then you need to occasionally ask a freind who is not a "yes man" to give you his objective eye.

Now, sitting in a factory in Pakastan mass producing knives from worn railraod rails this criticism may not apply. But to me it applies to anyone who is wanting to be a free lance arms engraver or fine art engraver.

Ray

 

[Marrinan]

Well said. I have noticed that some times beginers, like myself (only been engraving and or drawing eight or more hours a day for four and one half years) get adulation for there efforts when constructive critism is what is needed for a reality check. I have seen many praise filled postings for a piece of work when a little constructive critisim would be far more useful. Sometimes I have noticed pieces that are good examples of dot or line work but the scrolls ro border are in need of a good deal more practice before attempting what Lynton referred to as a "real job". What I have noticed is that many beginers want to get right into sceens and sceens which require great detail under the scope but the borders are not straight or the scrolls are lumpy or the whole design does not flow with rythm and harmoney-just my thinking, Fred

 

[Jon C. Dake]

Thanks guys. First of all let me say that I know that I am not there yet, and given the fact that I am my own worst critic, may never be. I am still at the point that when I get through with anything that I engrave, be it a practice plate or a knife bolster or whatever, I look at it and know that I can do better or at least think that I should be doing better. Under magnification, the certainty that it could be better is just more strongly enforced. I have no intention of doing any engraving for anyone until I can look at the work, with or without some magnification, and feel that I could not have done a better job. Hopefully when I get to that point I won't be just kidding myself and those who really know what good engraving looks like will have the same impression of my work. Maybe that is what Ray is saying. I have heard it said that it is a great deal easier to build a good reputation than to repair a poor one. I never had to repair my reputation in my professional life and don't think that it would be fun to do so in my engraving endeavor. Thank God I don't need to do this to support myself or I would probably get skinny, which might not be a bad thing.

 

[Ray Cover]

JOn,

One thing I would say is that even at this point in my career I see room for improvement in my work. Don't wait until your work is "perfect", but do wait until you get to that point where the obvious newbie mistakes are gone.

I have often said that the mark of a really good engraver is not that he does not make mistakes but his mistakes are not noticed by anyone but himself.

As long as we are human, perfection is unatainable but to do better than we did last time is always attainable.

Ray

 

[ddushane]

Ok, I'm reading all of this and it makes since but I have another question to throw in along these lines. I'm new at this so to speak, I've been playing with the idea and dreams of engraving for 10-15 yrs but haven't been able to get around to it much,I'm always busy with everything else, I have practiced more & more here lately since getting bench & tools set up better and finally bought a scope a month ago. I've been making knives, mostly folding knives and have always wanted to put engraving on them. I've been practicing my drawing, just got the L.D. Nimschke Firearms Engraver book, got it New for $125.00, and got the Ron Smith's Advanced Drawing of Scrolls book. I've been reading Ron's and studing Nimschke's work as well as a lot of yalls work that is posted everywhere, My problem is I lack in the area of imagination. I'm trying really hard to come up with my own style. I've read what Sam said about copying other engravers work, I understand what he said and totally agree so I'm studing everyones and trying to decide what leaves, scrolls and everything else I like then using what I learn to design my own stuff. Sometimes I'll come up with a drawing that I want to cut into something, one of the Police officers I work with has ordered his seventh knife from me and this one is a little nicer than the other ones, nicer handle material and I was wanting to put some engraving on the bolsters, I'm not charging for the engraving and not wanting to charge for my engraving until it reaches a certain level that hopefully you guys will let me know when I've reached that level. So here's my question, is it a good idea to put engraving on something if you're not charging for it and the customer wants you to engrave it? I appreciate all of yalls comments, there's a great deal of awesome info here in this forum. Talk to yall later, Dwayne

 

[Tim Wells]

To me; to charge or not to charge has nothing to do with the equation. Assuming you make nice knives and not knowing the quality level of engraving work you do yet, it's hard to render an opinion other than this.

If you have something in mind to cut on it and you feel you can do pull it off well, ask yourself, will it ruin the piece or enhance its beauty (not necessarily enhance its value) but just it's beauty? If you answered yes then cut it and take your time. Draw the whole think out first shading and all to see how it will flow with the lines of the knife.

 

[Sam]

So here's my question, is it a good idea to put engraving on something if you're not charging for it and the customer wants you to engrave it? I appreciate all of yalls comments, there's a great deal of awesome info here in this forum. Talk to yall later, Dwayne

Dwayne: I don't recommend doing any work for free. I understand your point, but by not charging something for your work, you're pretty much implying that it has no value. There might be exceptions to this (like for a family member or close friend), but don't make yourself and/or your work look cheap. I've seen engravers do this, either by joking (or being serious) about how awful their work is or not charging for it, and it makes me cringe. I think some might feel embarassed to charge for their work after seeing the work of others. Don't be! Even if an engraver is a 2 on a scale of 10, he/she can be proud of their accomplishment. As your work improves, charge accordingly.

 

[Barry Lee Hands]

I agree with Sam.

 

[KSnyder]

Hello everyone,
I'm a beginning engraver but I don't believe any sort of art should be put under the scrutiny of magnification.
Imho critique should be aimed at what it looks like in your hand in what I call "the cold light of day".
In other words it must stand up outside under natural shaded light to actually tell what it looks like. If the customer likes it, why the h$ll would he / she need to look at it under magnification.
I'm pretty confident that under magnification anyones work can be picked apart for the odd bump,elbow,slip & all the rest.
What's it all mean? NOT a darn thing in my book. Does the odd elbow etc. degrade the work, to the contrary it separates it from the mass produced crap anyone can buy. That should be the measure of a good piece of work.
For me magnification is for doing the work,and checking tool angles or taking out a splinter.
my $.02 worth,
Kent

 

[ddushane]

Thanks Sam & Tim for the comments, I hear you. And after hearing you It makes since. Bare with me & I'll get it.

 

[pilkguns]

it's not the 30 minutes or hour, or two hours or 2 weeks that it takes you to do something. Those are important, but its the hundreds perhaps thousands of practice hours that you did not get paid anything for, that has given you the skill that in turn those people want to have adorning their knife/gun/watch/pendant/insert item of your choice here. Its those untold hours of practice that needs to be compensated for because you and skills are worth it.

 

[Bob Bullard]

Jon
I grew up in New Mexico and I got to watch and learn how to silversmith somewhat and also made some very good and close friends in the process and the one thing that I learned from them is they belive that only one person was perfect and if you look real close at real Indian work you will always find a fault even by the old m
asters as they don't want to compete with God.
Bob