Critique Request Small Eros

[Mike_Morgan]

Mike,
Thanks for taking the time to help me out. It amazes me how I can read books about scroll structure and watch dvds, yet in practice my gears aren't meshing! I originally wanted to fill my backbones on this piece with just a few simple leaf structures, but couldn't figure it out, so went to Shawn Didyoungs book and practiced what he showed as step one. From now I will stay simpler in my endeavors but have to see this one out!
I appreciate your guidance.

My pleasure... I'm pretty new at this too... but one day it clicked for me, that the POINT OF ORIGIN IS IMPORTANT, and it everything MUST flow away from that point. Then looking to nature,... nature never "reaches" or stretches to fill up space... it unfurls gracefully within the space that it envelops.

 

[Jonathans]

I sincerely hope I'm not wearing out my welcome here.
I did my best to implement Mikes latest points to me. I think it looks much better than before. I don't quite like the "ear" scroll in the middle. I couldn't figure out what to do with it.

 

[Mike_Morgan]

I sincerely hope I'm not wearing out my welcome here.
I did my best to implement Mikes latest points to me. I think it looks much better than before. I don't quite like the "ear" scroll in the middle. I couldn't figure out what to do with it.
View attachment 39795

That's a whole lot better! Now all that is left is to deal with the "ear". This is the time to resort to my default solution in a bind... when in doubt, plagiarize Sam Alfano

This pendant shows a perfect example of leaves heading AWAY from the point of origin.

 

[Jonathans]

Gosh, that's beautifully done Mike! Thanks!

 

[Jonathans]

Ear fix.

 

[Mike_Morgan]

Gosh, that's beautifully done Mike! Thanks!

Yep, beautifully done by Sam Alfano in 2010. It's a great example of the solution to your drawing.

 

[AliAtiyabi]

That's a whole lot better! Now all that is left is to deal with the "ear". This is the time to resort to my default solution in a bind... when in doubt, plagiarize Sam Alfano

This pendant shows a perfect example of leaves heading AWAY from the point of origin.

It's a beautiful work, Mike.

 

[Mike_Morgan]

It's a beautiful work, Mike.

I wish I did work that good... it was done by Sam Alfano

 

[Sam]

Jonathan: Are you drawing this on computer or with pencil and paper? If you're using a computer, I would REALLY encourage you to switch to pencil and paper so you have more freedom of control with your drawing. I'm getting the feeling you're doing this digitally, and if you are, you're making it many times more difficult.

Once you have a perfect pencil drawing, you can then redraw on the computer if you absolutely must.

 

[AliAtiyabi]

I wish I did work that good... it was done by Sam Alfano

Thanks for sharing Mike and congratulation to Sam for his nice work.

 

[Jonathans]

I took Sam's advise to simplify and fix my wonky spirals. Sam I don't have the coordination to draw tiny, so I use Adobe draw which allows me to sketch large, erase large and then pull the section down to size. Layers also let me make changes to one aspect of the design without redoing the whole thing. I'm working with a tablet and pen. Is it really that important to use pencil and paper?

 

[Sam]

I took Sam's advise to simplify and fix my wonky spirals. Sam I don't have the coordination to draw tiny, so I use Adobe draw which allows me to sketch large, erase large and then pull the section down to size. Layers also let me make changes to one aspect of the design without redoing the whole thing. I'm working with a tablet and pen. Is it really that important to use pencil and paper?
View attachment 39947

Yes it's important, because sooner or later you're going to have to draw on the workpiece. I think you should move away from the computer and start filling some sketchbooks. I see that you're copying and pasting scrolls and this is creating more problems for you as you're just repeating the same faulty scroll. This is not learning to draw.

Sorry man...Just trying to help you.

 

[Jonathans]

That's ok Sam. I appreciate your frankness. I have considered your point about my process precluding me from ever freehand drawing on a work piece and you are correct. I just hope I can pull off a pencil drawing without wearing an eraser hole in the paper!

 

[Bluetickhound]

Don't feel bad... I've gone through my fair share of Pink Pearls in the past couple of months. It's all part of the process.

 

[kuzcokelly]

Johnathans,
I gotta tell you i have spent more time drawing than cutting . I find fitting to the shape of the work piece is the hardest part! I wish there were scrollworK overlays for any shape and size but that would be cheating and cheapen the work.. You're gonna do great, I'm sure of it!
,

 

[John B.]

That's ok Sam. I appreciate your frankness. I have considered your point about my process precluding me from ever freehand drawing on a work piece and you are correct. I just hope I can pull off a pencil drawing without wearing an eraser hole in the paper!

Hello Jonathans,
A good method to refine a drawing is to start your first rendition on a pad of cheap tracing paper commonly called "quick trace."
Then instead of wearing out an eraser you overlay a second sheet of quick trace, retrace while making some corrections.
Then put a sheet of clean white paper under that rendition, retrace and make any needed changes.
Keep going until you are satisfied that you have it right.
This way you have all your steps in the design for review and learning. And no erasers died in the process

 

[Jonathans]

Hello Jonathans,
A good method to refine a drawing is to start your first rendition on a pad of cheap tracing paper commonly called "quick trace."
Then instead of wearing out an eraser you overlay a second sheet of quick trace retrace while making some corrections.
Then put a sheet of clean white paper under that rendition, retrace and make any needed changes.
Keep going until you are satisfied that you have it right.
This way you have all your steps in the design for review and learning. And no erasers died in the process

John, Thanks for that. However, I have to ask, why is that so different than opening up a new drawing layer and tracing over the previous version on my tablet? The tablet is the paper, and my pressure sensitive stylus my pencil and fine eraser. Different layers emulate tracing paper.

 

[John B.]

John, Thanks for that. However, I have to ask, why is that so different than opening up a new drawing layer and tracing over the previous version on my tablet? The tablet is the paper, and my pressure sensitive stylus my pencil and fine eraser. Different layers emulate tracing paper.

Jonathans,
If playing with a computer that is what you want to do, .....Do it.
But so far in this thread I see you constantly missing the point and the good input given to you from people such as Mike Morgan.
And the bottom line is your design is not improving. Hate to be so blunt but there it is.
Why do you ask for advice and then mostly ignore it?
Sam Alfano gave you great advice and he speaks with over 30 years of engraving design experience and hundreds of successful students.
As Sam Alfano said, and you ignored, at some time and with some situations, transfers and computers won't help you.
You will have to learn to draw your final design directly on the piece and that takes drawing skill and practice.
I apologize to you and other Cafe members for this blunt and somewhat rude reply.
The futility of your thread and answers just got to me, sorry. Guess I'm getting too old for this stuff.

 

[Sam]

Thank you John B. You are right on the money and I consider your input extremely valuable.

Jonathan: there are some similarities in tracing on paper and layers in Photoshop and Illustrator. I have drawn over 2,000 vector scrollwork illustrations in Illustrator, and 99.9% of those began on paper. If you're not used to drawing on paper then I can't expect you to fully grasp the importance of what I'm trying to get through to you.

 

[Mike_Morgan]

Jonathan, Computers are great tools for a lot of things, but as Sam and others have said, there is simply no substitute for being able to "actually" draw. I'm working on two pretty ambitious engraving projects right now, both of which involve covering a fair amount of area, and being able to draw right on the article being engraved is the best (and possibly only) way to get them done.

But beyond that, I really feel that you're not grasping what I call "Scroll Design Theory"... which is studying and understanding the elements that make up a good scroll design. It's a process that I'm learning as we speak, and with each new project I get better at it, by seeing what works and what simply doesn't.

A sketch pad and a few pencils are really cheap, and if you're not used to it... brace yourself... it's going to be difficult at first. To get good at something, you have to start by being bad at it. I will kiddingly say, that at this moment, you're discovering that you're not having the best success at using the computer to get this done... so rather than putting in a lot of effort to improve at the method you're using... make the decision to be bad at sketching instead... for the moment! In time, you'll become better, and from there you can set your sights on being adequate. Being exceptional in any field of endeavor isn't something that happens in weeks, months or even years... it can take decades to become extraordinary.. even at the computer skills.

Personally, at the moment I'm suffering from delusions of adequacy, and I'd be pretty happy to have Sam or any of the other seasoned pros on this forum call me adequate! I'm not making any masterpieces this year... I'm digging through this just like you!

One final thought... When Sam says to simplify what you're doing, he's dead right. A few VERY simple leaves and flourishes that you can do WELL will yield a MUCH better result than complex concepts that are poorly executed. Start with the basics, and get good at SIMPLE scrolls. Shawn Didyoung has a tutorial that shows how to use a few really simple shapes, that can create a myriad of leaf structures. Sam has a video on scroll design that is exceptionally good, that simplifies the THEORY, and after watching that, it all begins to fall into place.

Immediate gratification is not going to happen... Learn to draw with pencil and paper, and above all else... KEEP IT SIMPLE!