Shotgun question

[Brian Hochstrat]

This is for all you gun experts out there, something I am not. I have an L.C. Smith that I am getting together for Reno next year. What is the best finish for Damascas barrels? As in coloring, case color, bluing, grey, I'm not sure what is typical. Also I was going to do some gold inlays at both ends, is there any safety issues there. If there is any other advice or unexpected things to what out for let me know. Thanks Brian

 

[Jack Davenport]

old doubles

Hi Brian: This gun that you mention has to be an old one if the barrells are damascus, hopfully the owner will not shoot this gun. Even if this gun is in good shape damascus barrells are not strong enough for todays ammunition. When you mentioned doing gold inlays in the barrells I get another scare, this could weaken barrells that in my opinion are already weak as in damascus. The barrells were probably rust blued or browned, browned damascus barrells always seem to show of the pattern that L. C. Smith used in the first years of their gunmaking. Damascus barrells were made by twisting or weaving low carbon wire toghether then rolling this onto a mandrell while hammer forging when high cherry red, about 1600 degrees f. one of the wires used had more nickel than the other therefore etching differently when browned or blued, this brought the pattern out that twisting or weaving the wire just as it was rolled onto the mandrell produced. I know that you didnt ask for this much explanation but I felt obligated to pass this on to you, this is not just my opinion but the expert knowledge of many gunsmiths before me. Thanks for listening to my stump speech about gun safety. Jack Davenport.

 

[Cody]

Brian, the best finish for an LC smith with damascus barrels would likely be browned to bring out the pattern. If black is preffered, the barrels just need to be boiled after the browning. The boiling changes the red iron oxide to black iron oxide hense the colour change. Finishing composite barrels to bring out the pattern is an art form in itself and isn't a simple proceedure. If the gun is to be treated to high grade engraving, you may want to send the barrels out to be refinished. If you want to do it yourself, I can help you with the process if you like. I'm something of a damascus barrel junkie, all of my shotguns have twist barrels and I have plans to build a rifle (.62cal) with an octogon to round twist barrel with an interchangeable 16ga twist smoothbore barrel, flintlock of course. As far as including gold bands goes, at the muzzle is not a problem and I doubt that bands at the breech would cause an issue but that would depend largely on how thick the barrels are at the breech. I think anything you do has to be under the assumption that the gun will be used so inlays at the breech should only be done if they will not compromise the safety of the barrels. If it were me, I'ld forgo the barrel inlays.

cody

 

[John B.]

Hi Brian.
I agree with Cody regarding the barrel bands on damascus.
This can be true on many thin regular steel barreled shotguns also.
I have refused to do bands sometimes, especially at the muzzle end.
Regarding the safety of older damascus steel barrel shotguns.
There was a very interesting series of articles in some recent issues of "The Double Gun Journal" giving exhaustive tests of damascus barreled shotguns.
You and others may find these enlightening.
I don't want to be giving safety advise, so please don't take this that way. I'm no expert on the subject.
But the bottom line to the tests found most damascus to be strong enough to be used with modern moderate power ammo.
Please read the tests and make up your own mind.
Don't take my word for it, I could have read it wrong and I'm not a gunsmith!
Just for your own insight.
John B.

 

[Jim-Iowa]

I can't imagine missing the joy of swinging a fine shotgun based on the Damascus Barrel paranoia that has been propogated the past 50 yrs in this country. I do believe it is a product of of magnumitus in American Shooters. One does not need magnum loads to be effective.
Ross Seyfried was at one time an editor for Guns & Ammo and is a great proponet of Damascus Barreled shotguns. One could do some research in that direction on proper loads.
Those shotguns are too fine to damage with excessive loads.

 

[Brian Hochstrat]

Thanks guys, I will save the barrel bands for another project, and just do a small amount of scroll work at the breech end, that should be safe. It will probably never be shot, but, you never know when somebody may get a wild hair and try to run a box of goose loads through it. Also just out of principle, I believe embellishment should enhance an object, not render it unsafe or useless. Thanks again, Brian

 

[Dennis D.]

Brian, check out some of the high grade Smiths, you will see gold inlay a both the breech and muzzle ends and some pretty extensive engraving. Have someone check barrel wall thickness. Many of the older guns have barrels that were pitted by corrosive priming and then were "cleaned up" leaving very thin barrels. While browned barrels are the norm I have seen some done with black damascus that were really stunning. Check out the Shooting Sportsmans web site, they have a great forum for shotgun info.

Dennis

 

[Bill Brockway]

Brian - Following are a couple of pictures of Damascus barrels, one brown and white, one black and white. They are plain twist barrels, but the "fingerprint" damascus will give similar results. The process used on both these guns was a method devised by Dr. Oscar Gaddy, formerly of the University of Illinois, now deceased, who was this country's leading authority on finishes for Damascus barrels, and also color case hardening of steel. In his research, he uncovered many of the secrets used by historic gun makers in the past several centuries. His findings were published in the Double Gun Journal, in the Winter, 1996 and Spring, 1997 issues (for color case hardening), and the Summer and Fall issues, 1997 (for Damascus coloring). He also wrote a subsequent article on the procedure used by Parker Bros. to produce their famous black and white Damascus finish.


Briefly, the procedure is to use very dilute solutions of rust-blue, repeated many times. I use Laurel Mountain Forge. You will probably want to start with a dilution of about 1 part Laurel Mountain to 2 parts water for the first pass only. The next few passes (2 or 3) will probably be 1 part blue to 5 parts water. After that, you can go to 1 part blue to 8 or more parts water, which dilution you can continue until the browning is dark enough to suit you. After applying the solution, the barrels are hung up in a warm, humid place to rust, which may take from 3-4 hours to overnight. When the barrels have rusted, they are dipped in a 15% (by volume) solution of Radio Shack Ferric Chloride etchant in water for no more than 5 seconds (important!), after which it is run outside and flushed thoroughly inside and out with a garden hose. This is an acid after-etch, which will lighten the color of the white striations without lightening the dark striations. If you leave the barrels in the Steel-White too long, it will kill the contrast.

After each etching, the barrel is boiled in plain water for about 5 minutes (for black and white barrels only; skip the boiling for brown and white), and wet-carded with steel wool under water, until it looks right. The total number of rustings may run as high as 12 to 15, depending on the fineness of the pattern in the barrels. The plain twist barrels shown here probably only took 8 or 10 passes. This process is essentially the same procedure that has been followed for years, with the exception of the after-etch, which is new, although there are references to it in Angier's encyclopedic book, "Browning and Bluing of Firearms."

The Parker Bros. finish is achieved by treating the blacked barrels, after they are completely finished, with a bath of logwood dye, and treating the dyed barrels with another acid etch to increase the contrast between the black and white striations. I don't have the Parker recipes in front of me now, but can find them for you if you would like to see them.

It's a dirty, messy, tedious process, but the results can be quite spectacular. Good luck with yours. Bill

 

[KSnyder]

Fellow cutters,
I'm a member of a muzzleloading club & the shotgunners there regularly use Damacus barreled guns.
they use 2f black powder with around 1/1/8 oz. of lead shot. Some of the more recent ones (breechloaders)they load the paper shot cartridges.
our shotgun guru says he in his 70 yrs. has NEVER seen a damacus barrel "blow up" with bp loads.
Granted, this is just one man but his gunsmithing & shooting experience is vast.
If the gun is sound with the absence of major corrosion/ pitting in the barrels I wouldn't worry about shooting it.
Jim is right about the magnumitus in America.
I think the damascus barrel blowing up is an urban myth.
Most gun "accidents" are operator error.
my opinion,
Kent