Sharing an Artform

[Steve Adams]

In the Minting Industry I have become familiar with quite a few other die engravers and sculptors, many of whom are my friends. After learning about Hobo Nickels I have become aquainted with engravers from other fields. As one who has enjoyed creating Hobo Nickels and enjoyed the friendships it has created, I am always enthused about sharing this art form with others. Specifically though for this post I am speaking of introducing Hobo Nickel carving to other capable engravers in our related fields thinking they would be interested in trying it. To date I have not gotten much of a response at all from die engravers like myself. Of the eight die engravers I know quite well, none have taken this craft seriously or even want to ty it. Several of them would be quite good at it, and several more could actually use the extra cash. I am kind of perplexed, not understanding the lack of incentive. They either don't have the time, or as one guy put it, " I'm not motivated ". I realize this isn't for everyone, but it seems like a good fit for hand engravers in all trades. Has anyone else out there run into this when trying to introduce a new art form to fellow engravers?

 

[Sam]

Steve: Condsidering the number of engravers out there, I agree that relatively few have tried their hand at hobo nickels. I believe that nearly everyone here in the Cafe knows how to start non-sculpted engraving - draw the design, sharpen a graver that incises a V, and go to work. Sculpting is a different animal altogether, and I suspect many simply don't know where to begin the hobo nickel journey. Guys like you (die engravers) live in a 3D world of engraving, while many of us reside in a 2D world with very little time spent at actual metal sculpting. This is just my theory...I have no data to back this up.

Why your fellow die engravers haven't pursued this sort of blows my theory out of the water, since they're also in the 3D world of engraving. Could it be that they're so used to intaglio work that they're uncomfortable outside that realm? I have a friend who's a master stationery engraver, who after 50 years of engraving everything backwards, is very uncomfortable in my everyday world of engraving.

Motivation is another thing. If it doesn't interst you, then it doesn't interest you. I've often said that in my 27 years as a professional engraver, nothing has been as much fun as hobo nickels! They're enjoyable to do, can be very forgiving, and can often bring nice sums of money.

I don't mean to put you on the spot, but if you'd care to do a short how-to article with photos you'd make a LOT of Cafe members very happy! / ~Sam

 

[Steece]

Steve,

I second Sam's comments about an article making many of us VERY happy! I am working my way more and more into sculpting work but it is hard to know where to start sometimes. Often some tips that you might even take for granted would be a revelation for many of us. Anything "how to" on the subject of nickel carving would be greatly appreciated.

Steece

 

[Mike Cirelli]

Steve
I think as Sam says if it doesn't interest you your not going to pursue it. The other thing may be trying to sell them. It's easy to sell them for cheap, but to try and get out of them what you put into them sometimes can be a challenge. Collectors just like anyone else is looking for a deal. If your work is not in such demand even though it may be great work collectors won't usually pay. If your doing it for fun that wouldn't matter much. But if you could be doing your regular job and get paid well to do it, it would be hard to put hours and hours into something and lose money doing it. If I don't get what I want for them they go in a drawer, I won't sell them. That's just fair to me and hell if I carved it then I think I have some say so. Hobo nickel collectors is a very small niche market. I personally love carving them I just don't have enough time to put into them.

Mike

 

[Billzach]

Mike, right now i sell everything i carve and stay behind on commission work carving coins and i can carve coins within a reasonable time frame, but i,ve been carving coins over 11 years , but as you,ve stated, there are very few buyers for high dollar carved coins and sometimes it seems we,ve more carvers than collectors, unless new collectors get into hobo nickel collecting, there will be fewer every year..I,m retired and carving coins is supposed to be a hobby, but i find myself carving coins 40 to 50 hours some weeks because i love to carve coins and i,ve a outlet for them..In the last few months i,ve began to engrave a few knife bolsters and plan to engrave a derringer for myself this spring and slack off on carving coins..I,ll say this, there will always be a market for coins carved by steve, sam, ray, lee, etc..What would help coin carvers the most would be advance our coin carving into the art world, which it is...[ps] The last few years i,ve started selling carved coins to non hobo nickel collectors, or people who don,t have a interest in hobo nickels, but have interest on the subject on the carved coin..

 

[Glenn]

I for one when first introduced to hobo nickels thought of it as a waste of time. No interest at all. Now that I have had more exposure on this forum I'm getting the bug to try this out. Friday I stopped at a long time wholesale jeweler who shares some interests with me. I asked him if he was familiar with the hobo nickels. He looked at me with a blank stare. He then said he had never heard of them, but would very much like to see one.
I've started collecting nickels and I am planning to try to carve me a hobo nickel. So see your persistance is paying off!

 

[Steve Adams]

Sam,
I will work on something for the cafe with photos of course the next time I do a nickel, it will be a little while though. The hobo nickels provide a really nice distraction from my regular routine, so I guess I would be doing them profit or not. I'm with Mike though, I'd would keep one before selling it too cheap. On the other hand I have given many away when there was a good reason. Early on a woman saw an article in about me in the paper then sent me half a dozen nice Buffalo nickels. She said she liked the thought that I was putting my daughter through college a nickel at a time and wanted to help. In return I sent her a hobo nickel. This little art form has me meeting some really nice people. I think everyone makes friends doing this, probably one of the reasons I try to get others interested, sucessful or not.

 

[Sam]

Steve: Take your time. When you're done post it to the masses! We'll all enjoy your tutorial very much. Hobo nickels are too fun NOT to do! / ~Sam

 

[R.Runyan]

Steve,

I for one, have taken up the art of engraving buffalo nickels.
You are right, it takes away the everyday die engraving that we do on a regular bases.
We happen to work for the same company and I talked with you on the phone not long ago, and you reminded me of this forum. Since then I have cut a couple, do to your work inspiring me to do so...I figure shoot man, if he can do it, so can I...lol
I don't know you but if you want to or are willing to help an ole boy out...I wont stop you...GRIN
Finding the time is another issue. You can make money engraving these?
I'll post the latest nickel I've done, it's of my old dog Beethoven. Ten years gone by and I still miss the ole boy.

Cheers, Robin

 

[R.Runyan]

In the Minting Industry I have become familiar with quite a few other die engravers and sculptors, many of whom are my friends. After learning about Hobo Nickels I have become aquainted with engravers from other fields. As one who has enjoyed creating Hobo Nickels and enjoyed the friendships it has created, I am always enthused about sharing this art form with others. Specifically though for this post I am speaking of introducing Hobo Nickel carving to other capable engravers in our related fields thinking they would be interested in trying it. To date I have not gotten much of a response at all from die engravers like myself. Of the eight die engravers I know quite well, none have taken this craft seriously or even want to ty it. Several of them would be quite good at it, and several more could actually use the extra cash. I am kind of perplexed, not understanding the lack of incentive. They either don't have the time, or as one guy put it, " I'm not motivated ". I realize this isn't for everyone, but it seems like a good fit for hand engravers in all trades. Has anyone else out there run into this when trying to introduce a new art form to fellow engravers?

OK, How do I sell them...I'm one of those die engraver you are speaking of. I have a daughter going to college next year...boy do I need the CA$E.

 

[Steve Adams]

Robin,
Sell them? First start looking at the competition. Type in Hobo Nickel on eBay, then go to the OHNS website ( join the OHNS ). See what people are doing, find out what themes are popular, then have at it. HINT: hobo themes are the best to start with, then get creative. Try to improve with each, and build a solid reputation. Sold my first on eBay, then I tried the OHNS Fun Auction, then the comissions started coming in after a while. I was even fortunate enough to work with Sam once on a collaboration. The early ones were not highly profitable, but eventually they made good money. I have done them in half a day, and taken up to six days. The most profitable ones are done in one or two days. Any more than that and the buyers become fewer. I don't want to get into dollar amounts here, but will say that whatever you make should at least be equal to or better than your die engarving rate. Try to impress the collector, but have fun at it. Once you get good at it people will take notice. All the help you need in advice is here or at the OHNS site.

 

[Steve Adams]

Robin,
I forgot, go to www.sga-sculpture-engraving.com . There's some hobo nickel carving advice there in a few spots.

 

[Keith]

The nickels are fun to do. Its also real easy to get hooked.
I have been carving for a few years and show them whenever I get together with friends.
I went to the custom knife show in N.Y.C. on Saturday and had some hobos with me, I gave out a dozen uncarved buffalo nickels to other engravers to try carving one for themselves.
As far as selling them I have been selling on ebay, sometimes they will sell for a good price and other times they won't. The hobo nickel club will also post something about you and your work if you send photos. Membership is 15 bucks a year....
www.hobonickels.org
Just remember to just have fun.
Keith Pedersen

 

[Billzach]

Keith, it,s good to see you here, when you get time post some pictures of your carvings... [ps] i,ve known Keith for a number of years and he,s a great coin carver as well as being a super nice person.

 

[Keith]

Hi Bill,
Thanks for the kind words.
Here is a picture of a commission carving I'm working on.
The balls on the hat are copper inlay and the earring is 22kt gold.
Keith

 

[coincutter]

I think Sam is right when he speaks of making the switch from 2d to 3d and negative die cutting to positive bas relief. Those are significant obstacles in any ones book.

The other thing to consider is the ratio of sculptors to artists. Not as many people work dimensional art as 2d because many just are not wired for it. I used to teach sculpture and painting and it is literally amazing how some peoples brains transmit imagery. They turn 3d into 2d internally and therefore the ablity to flip that back is sketchy at best.

Personally, I don't think coin carving is a cash cow for the average sculptor/engraver. It takes time to learn to do it right, there are a lot of different tools involved that many don't have access to or can make. Most engravers are set up for 2d work and the added expense of tooling smaller can be an eye opener. Then too, nickels are not the friendliest animals to cut or finish out to the quality collecotrs expect nowdays. Every coin has to top the preceding one to keep in the inner circle where the serious collectors play. Plain carvings don't cut it, everyone wants 24k inlay, gems and who knows what else. I have commissions for ivory inlays with schrim on the ivory. Tough stuff to do. You make a mistake and it's in the dumper. Not much room for error or repairing a mistake. On the other hand when you do make it into the realm, there are a lot of projects out there. Not always in nickels either.

I guess I am very fortunate, like Bill, I have more projects than I can complete in a lifetime. I can't NOT sell a coin. Granted not every one is a major money maker but thats where tuningthe process and learning how to get things done fast pays off. Unfortunately that only comes with time. There are coin carvers out there on Ebay that crank out wonderful pieces at an alarming rate. But in doing so they eventually drive the market into the ground as collectors start thinking that itdoesn't take much effort to turn out a work of art. Others cut huge amounts of what can only be refferred to as garp and are happy to sell a coin free and mark up the postage. Senerios like these make it very hard for new people to get into carving and make it worth their while so they fade out quickly. Some collectors have very deep pockets, so much money it's scary. They are hard to get to and very picky about who they play with. But they do recognize good talent whenthey see it so it's worth trying to see if you can make the grade. If you do, you will be quite busy, not rich but happy.

Tutorials are great. But the easiest way is to just take a handfull of coins and start looking at them under the scope to see how the coin engravers did their magic. the pick up whatever tools you have in hand and start trying to change the image while making it look as if you had never been there and the coin was made that way. In this fashion, you will gain the greatest respect for die carvers who do this process in reverse to make the molds for these coins. This is not easy stuff to master. Much of it comes naturally. You have it or you don't. Yes it can be taught to some extent but past the techniques of using the equipment it boils down to pure art.

It's more of a love than a job. The little suckers are addicting to do. The neatest thing is that when all the knives and guns have rusted away and been lot the coin collectors will have preserved something with your initials and history to be passed on to future generations. If you want to be a part of history, then this is the place to play.

With regards to selling them and seeing if you are any good, sell on ebay. You will find out. Most of the collectors play there. If they like you it will be come quite obvious.

 

[R.Runyan]

Lots of good read here.

The money is always a good thing however, for me, it's not really about the money one could earn as it is challenging myself to create something new and interesting.
As a die engraver, you not only work in a 3d world but one has to work in a 2d as well. I have had a great privilege of working under some very good engravers through out my 24 years of being an engraver. This has aloud me to work on a variety of thing such as class ring molds, college pins, nursing pins emblematic and so on.
A lot of what we did was creating models for the rings. This is not unlike working down a coin because it's all 3d and a positive. The creation of Hobbs (hubs) is another positive work field. As you work down a positive for pressing at a later time. I truly believe that some die engravers are not as fast as others, and do not have the time to venture out into another field such as coin carving/engraving. A die engraver must think positive as he or she is working in the negative. If anything, (in my opinion) a die engraver should pickup the art of coin engraving fairly quick. Without a doubt, coin engraving is challenging to say the least, but it will keep you on your toes...GRIN
I'm with Steve on the fact that there are several die engravers out there that would be very good at the art of engraving coins.
As far as tools...most die engravers I know have the ability and tools to do the job. I for one don't have all these new power gravers and such, but I would rather do it the old fashion way anyway, push, punch, chisel and stone. Please don't start ripping on me as I mean no disrespect to those who use power tools at all. If I could afford them and use them I WOULD. Just stuck in my old ways I guess. I'm still dotting parts for location...no scanner...lol
Well that's just my 2 cents err should I say nickel.

Cheers, Robin