Recent Drawings

[Rannis]

I am submitting for critique some recent drawings of scrolls. These are blendings of those I have trained under with my own vision. Not being a trained artist I would like some feedback from the group. One element, I call it a flame bud, is meant to top a triangle scroll or the ends of a center piece. I am still waiting for my tool so here is all the work I have to present for critique.
V/R Dale

 

[monk]

you should get a book on scroll design and development.it's important to develop this skill gradually. it is good that you draw, but for the moment you are way behind the curve. practice in developing drawing'design technique is just as important as is learning graver control. you will find many great books listed here. use the search bar. good luck

 

[Rannis]

you should get a book on scroll design and development.it's important to develop this skill gradually. it is good that you draw, but for the moment you are way behind the curve. practice in developing drawing'design technique is just as important as is learning graver control. you will find many great books listed here. use the search bar. good luck

Thanks for the help. I have been accumulating literature on scroll design. Starting with Meeks and numerous others. JJ Roberts just shared some others with me last week and I continue to seek out what I can.

 

[monk]

it all comes in time.
get a looseleaf and date each drawing. seeing even a slight improvement can inspire one to stay the course.

 

[Leland Davis]

YouTube has a series by Ken Hunt on drawing scrolls. that would be a good place to start. What monk said about the notebook is good too. Keep working and posting your drawings. monk and others were a big help to me when I was trying to learn.

 

[Rannis]

Many thanks to all who have taken the time to reply. I do greatly appreciate the guidance.
I started a sketch book and have been practicing since December and you are correct, the change even in that short period of time is compeling
I will check out the Ken Hunt's Youtube videos as well.

V/R Dale

 

[DaveatWeirs]

Alright, this is gunna sound dumb and arty-farty but for context so I don't sound crazy: I was an art teacher, my mother was an art teacher, and my grandad was an art teacher. so, from an arty-farty point of view you need to draw bigger. Its a bit caught up at the moment, focusing too much on getting details right while missing the over all proportions. It's not bad and everyone does it but its a case of not seeing the woods for the trees. My advice would be go, like, really big. Really really big. As in 'go put charcoal on a bamboo stick and draw on the ground' big. Aim for just the back bones first, don't worry about secondary curls not to mention leaf details. get the backbones and then just place backbone curves for the leaves. nothing more. drawing this way is going to be very frustrating and hard, especially if you use the stick method but that's actually what you want. you want it to be as much of a challenge as possible. force yourself to only be able to focus on the basic shapes. If you can draw all the leaves and stuff its too easy, stand on one leg or somethin.
It's gunna feel stupid and a waste of time, but think of it like this: if you struggle with the hard way and still manage to get good shapes when you go back to drawing smaller is going to be easy as hell. Like training while carrying extra weights and then going running without them. its going to force you to just see the overall shapes, the general flow and vibe of it. when you've got those down you can go in and noodle around with leafy details and fold overs and what not. the thing that makes good compositions stand out is not the details, its the foundation of the flow. the details are just extra gravy on top.

EDIT: oh, a fun exercise to do with the stick is have a look and some of the master engraver's stuff and, while looking at the, try sketch out the backbones. It'll make you want to throw the stick in the the river cuz you wont be able to get it as clean and smooth as them but it will force you to examine the shapes and the flow. you'd have to do you best to get it right and as correct as you can, if its too easy then make it harder, draw on concrete with a wet mop, loosely tape a stick to the stick so the damn thing wobbles, anything dumb, just make it difficult so that when you get good at it the hard way, the easy way is so much easier

 

[Rannis]

Alright, this is gunna sound dumb and arty-farty but for context so I don't sound crazy: I was an art teacher, my mother was an art teacher, and my grandad was an art teacher. so, from an arty-farty point of view you need to draw bigger. Its a bit caught up at the moment, focusing too much on getting details right while missing the over all proportions. It's not bad and everyone does it but its a case of not seeing the woods for the trees. My advice would be go, like, really big. Really really big. As in 'go put charcoal on a bamboo stick and draw on the ground' big. Aim for just the back bones first, don't worry about secondary curls not to mention leaf details. get the backbones and then just place backbone curves for the leaves. nothing more. drawing this way is going to be very frustrating and hard, especially if you use the stick method but that's actually what you want. you want it to be as much of a challenge as possible. force yourself to only be able to focus on the basic shapes. If you can draw all the leaves and stuff its too easy, stand on one leg or somethin.
It's gunna feel stupid and a waste of time, but think of it like this: if you struggle with the hard way and still manage to get good shapes when you go back to drawing smaller is going to be easy as hell. Like training while carrying extra weights and then going running without them. its going to force you to just see the overall shapes, the general flow and vibe of it. when you've got those down you can go in and noodle around with leafy details and fold overs and what not. the thing that makes good compositions stand out is not the details, its the foundation of the flow. the details are just extra gravy on top.

EDIT: oh, a fun exercise to do with the stick is have a look and some of the master engraver's stuff and, while looking at the, try sketch out the backbones. It'll make you want to throw the stick in the the river cuz you wont be able to get it as clean and smooth as them but it will force you to examine the shapes and the flow. you'd have to do you best to get it right and as correct as you can, if its too easy then make it harder, draw on concrete with a wet mop, loosely tape a stick to the stick so the damn thing wobbles, anything dumb, just make it difficult so that when you get good at it the hard way, the easy way is so much easier

First, I do greatly appreciate the input. I was reading your post and listening to the message and while I wholly understand your point, my neighbors think Im crazy as it is so if I did this I would end up in a rubber room for sure......
Not to make too light of the suggestion, I also thought of sidewalk chaulk in this context.(Given my current skill level it may be a more suitable medium)
I do have a large sketch book and will begin to employ it drawing at a larger scale in addition to working on scroll proportions, overall visual flow and less on the minutia.
Griffiths' book on Art & Design Fundamentals seems to cover this very topic and I will delve into that text over the next several months to help improve my basics.
Many Thanks again for the input.
V/R Dale

 

[msw]

i believe the advice of the arty-fartsy is good. sidewalk chalk is also also good idea ... something (not sure exactly what) happens to the hand-eye thing when you draw big, and it helps when you go back to a smaller format. this does not work the other way 'round, however, and if you draw itty bitty, you will stuck in a postage stamp world for all of your days, and you will struggle in that environment to really control where the lines and the overall form goes ...

best of luck!

 

[markswill]

I want to echo what Daveat Weirs has written and provide a little physiologic support to the recommendations, because they're really good recommendations!

I maintain a license to practice occupational therapy, and did so for about 10.5 years (until the stress did me in...). For about 5.5 of those years I worked specifically in upper extremity rehab- getting people to move and use their shoulders/elbows/wrists/hands after bad stuff happens (it was always wild a few days after July 4th)

One of the first principles we learned is that control begins proximally and moves distally. That's a master's degree explanation to simply say that you must be in control of your core first. Control your trunk, then your shoulder, it then flows down to the elbow, wrist and digits.
'
People develop that type of control and muscle memory from time at the bench and/or drawing pad. There's no way around it; you must draw and practice engraving and draw and practice more. How's the saying go- it takes 10,000 hours to master something? I don't remember... I'm nowhere close to it.

So that's a solid suggestion- start big. Start HUGE. Make your core work for it. Make sure your shoulder is developing control and it will gradually work its way down.

On a side note, I now work as a welder and I can tell you, if you don't have control of your core, shoulder, elbow, wrist etc, the welds are going to look horrible. I mean horrible...

THanks for the topic. I've got a long way to go but at least it's a fun ride. Enjoy!

 

[Rannis]

I want to echo what Daveat Weirs has written and provide a little physiologic support to the recommendations, because they're really good recommendations!

I maintain a license to practice occupational therapy, and did so for about 10.5 years (until the stress did me in...). For about 5.5 of those years I worked specifically in upper extremity rehab- getting people to move and use their shoulders/elbows/wrists/hands after bad stuff happens (it was always wild a few days after July 4th)

One of the first principles we learned is that control begins proximally and moves distally. That's a master's degree explanation to simply say that you must be in control of your core first. Control your trunk, then your shoulder, it then flows down to the elbow, wrist and digits.
'
People develop that type of control and muscle memory from time at the bench and/or drawing pad. There's no way around it; you must draw and practice engraving and draw and practice more. How's the saying go- it takes 10,000 hours to master something? I don't remember... I'm nowhere close to it.

So that's a solid suggestion- start big. Start HUGE. Make your core work for it. Make sure your shoulder is developing control and it will gradually work its way down.

On a side note, I now work as a welder and I can tell you, if you don't have control of your core, shoulder, elbow, wrist etc, the welds are going to look horrible. I mean horrible...

THanks for the topic. I've got a long way to go but at least it's a fun ride. Enjoy!

Your statment make perfect sense. I am also well versed in fabrication, mostly to support my gunsmith business builting benches, bluing stands and what not. I also shot compeditively while in the service and the core plays a HUGE, almost outsized role in those aftivities. I never though of it that way and as usual you guys have provided some very valuable food for thought and help.
V/R Dale

 

[DaveatWeirs]

I want to echo what Daveat Weirs has written and provide a little physiologic support to the recommendations, because they're really good recommendations!

I maintain a license to practice occupational therapy, and did so for about 10.5 years (until the stress did me in...). For about 5.5 of those years I worked specifically in upper extremity rehab- getting people to move and use their shoulders/elbows/wrists/hands after bad stuff happens (it was always wild a few days after July 4th)

One of the first principles we learned is that control begins proximally and moves distally. That's a master's degree explanation to simply say that you must be in control of your core first. Control your trunk, then your shoulder, it then flows down to the elbow, wrist and digits.
'
People develop that type of control and muscle memory from time at the bench and/or drawing pad. There's no way around it; you must draw and practice engraving and draw and practice more. How's the saying go- it takes 10,000 hours to master something? I don't remember... I'm nowhere close to it.

So that's a solid suggestion- start big. Start HUGE. Make your core work for it. Make sure your shoulder is developing control and it will gradually work its way down.

On a side note, I now work as a welder and I can tell you, if you don't have control of your core, shoulder, elbow, wrist etc, the welds are going to look horrible. I mean horrible...

THanks for the topic. I've got a long way to go but at least it's a fun ride. Enjoy!

I didn't even think of it as a core/muscle work out, I've always just seen it as a mind thing but it makes perfect sense.
The thing with drawing huge and doing it in stupid ways that make it unnecessarily difficult is that it works. I still do it occasionally when I'm stuck on a design. You feel like an idiot, like you're wasting your time, and its really annoying and frustrating, however the most annoying thing is that it works. That's the bit that annoys me most, lol. Every time I'm like 'this is so stupid I can't believe I'm back trying these stupid exercises' and then it bloody works. There's always a 'stubborn teenager' part of me that refuses to admit it and is annoyed that it works, lol. "cant believe this stupid shit worked. Again. ffs"

 

[mtlctr]

Your statment make perfect sense. I am also well versed in fabrication, mostly to support my gunsmith business builting benches, bluing stands and what not. I also shot compeditively while in the service and the core plays a HUGE, almost outsized role in those aftivities. I never though of it that way and as usual you guys have provided some very valuable food for thought and help.
V/R Dale

First off, get a real sketch pad, leave the ones with lines to a secretary. Get a good eraser, Pink Pearl or gum. And decent pencils ,Not a 10 pack at Dollar store.
you didn’t shoot competitively with a knock off black rifle huh?
you will benefit from decent art materials , it is the foundation of all your work.
attached pic is Strictly pencil (graphite) hopefully drawing inspiration.good luck

 

[JJ Roberts]

Nice drawing of the dog. J.J.

 

[mtlctr]

Nice drawing of the dog. J.J.

Thanks JJ.shes passed on now, one heck of a hunter. Had her 13 yrs. Like most GWP’s. she hunted fur or feather, blood tracked, water retrieved with equal enthusiasm.

 

[Rannis]

First off, get a real sketch pad, leave the ones with lines to a secretary. Get a good eraser, Pink Pearl or gum. And decent pencils ,Not a 10 pack at Dollar store.
you didn’t shoot competitively with a knock off black rifle huh?
you will benefit from decent art materials , it is the foundation of all your work.
attached pic is Strictly pencil (graphite) hopefully drawing inspiration.good luck View attachment 51625

Yes I am sorry for not replying sooner (no pun intended) That is a very nice drawing. The anatomy is very good and the texture of the fur is apparent. Fine velvety on the ears and course on the shoulders.

 

[Rannis]

Thanks JJ.shes passed on now, one heck of a hunter. Had her 13 yrs. Like most GWP’s. she hunted fur or feather, blood tracked, water retrieved with equal enthusiasm. View attachment 51631

Im so sorry, as a dog owner I know that pain. She looks to be fairly pampered for a working pooch.

 

[mtlctr]

Im so sorry, as a dog owner I know that pain. She looks to be fairly pampered for a working pooch.

She was a pampered Diva, had the run of house, terrific watch dog.

Yes I am sorry for not replying sooner (no pun intended) That is a very nice drawing. The anatomy is very good and the texture of the fur is apparent. Fine velvety on the ears and course on the shoulders.

decent paper & pencils helps the outcome for a good study / sketch/ drawing.good luck with your drawing/ engraving journey.