Quoting a price to a customer on a project ?

[Rob Blanton]

Hello everyone,
I wanted to see what your thoughts were about quoting a price to a customer on a project. If a price is agreed upon for particular project and then after the actual cutting begins you decide to put more time into the piece or it takes longer that you anticipated would you increase the price accordingly or hold the initial price quoted.
Thanks for your help,
Rob

 

[Tim Wells]

Accurate pricing comes with experience and is based on how long you know it will take you do do something. Sometimes things happen, you hit a void or an inclusion in the poorly made ring someone sent you for example. This will require some rework that you nor the customer didn't anticipate. So here you go to the jeweler and have him laser weld the voids so that they can be engraved.

I just did a job on a signet ring with a coat of arms like that. I told the customer about the problem and the estimated cost of the weld job. He agreed, I proceeded and finished the job and sent it off. I have yet to be paid the 35 bucks the laser job cost me but I learned a lesson and won't do that again. I had already been paid for the engraving which was to cut VIRITAS ET FIDELITAS backwards on the ribbon below the shield in 1mm high block letters.

Now if I had been working along and was struck by sudden inspiration with an idea that would really make this piece special, as long as I had the artistic license to do so I'd cut it at the quoted price. I can't expect a customer to pay me more for some bright idea I had that took me more timie to do than originally agreed upon, that ain't right in my way of thinking. If I did it, I may have made less per hour on that job but I made myself and the customer happier by the looks of it and basically I took a little less money in exchange for job satisfaction.

How much that is worth to you as an artist is something only you can know but I wouldn't make a habit out of it. My wife took my truck to the grocery yesterday and Diesel was $4.75 a gallon so that's well over a hundred bucks to fill it from near empty. I don't do freebies anymore... can't afford to.

That rule of mine is also subject to tweaking for particular customers. Some of these knife engravers have such a reputation and raport with some of their repeat customers that they grant them a flex range if you will to make up for those times when a little more gold inlay or some bulino will really set something off. However, those guys have earned that leeway through years of doing business and giving consistent results.

In short, stick to the price quoted regardless of how much time you put into it unless the customer makes a change, then you have to up the price accordingly. This is fair for all parties and it keeps the reputation of engravers in general on a positive note when we all are fair with our customers. But remember you can't please everybody and sometimes no matter what you do they find something to fuss about. Experience will also aid you in avoiding those types of individuals. Good luck.

 

[Ray Cover]

Hi Rob,

As you know I have struggled with this too. So much so that I had to go find a solution.

A lot of folks feel one should price engraving as a "finished piece of artwork". The idea being that fine engraving should have a good worth to it and be worth paying for. In concept I agree with this. The problem comes when one must set a value on a "finished piece of artwork" before its finished. The reality is, when you are doing custom work on commission you never have the luxury of waiting till the work is finished to set the price.

I beleive that this "finished artwork" concept of pricing has caused many of us through the years to think we don't need a system to price our work (as if a pricing system makes it a commodity product rather than an artwork). The idea being that we should just be able to look at a job and "KNOW" how much work it is going to be and how much we should charge based on past experience.

AN engraver who cuts a lot of the same thing may be able to do that but it is very hard for an engraver who does custom work on various objects. My jobs vary form knives to guns to fountain pens to fly rods etc, etc. As a result most of us end up quoting prices too low and lose money because we can never accurately judge a job off the top of our head.

I needed a system.

So I went to some of the fine art forums and hung out there for a while to see how some of the painters and printmakers were pricing their work. Low and behold most of the ARTIST are using the same type of "per square inch" system that we engravers have been trying to pull ourselves away from.

Here we are trying to move away from systematic pricing and quote prices in order to have our work viewed as art rather than production work. All the while a majority of the painters and printmakers are using a systematic pricing structure. DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Likewise, I have gone to a per square inch pricing structure. I have sat down and cut one square inch tiles with the most common types of work I do. Now I know how much it takes to cut one square inch of those various scrolls and such. As unique jobs come in I will cut a tile with the unique work before giving a quote.

This has advantages.

1. As a result my prices have gone up because I am no longer underestimating the size of a job or work involved in a job.

2. I have these tiles to show a customer as sort of a real life brochure or sales sample.

3. Before doing a new type or unique type of work I am able to prepare myself by cutting a new 1" tile to actually see how much work it will be before quoting.

4. This makes the quoting process cut and dry. No dickering. None of that, "You cut Mr. X's knife for $X,XXX. Why is this one costing so much more?" I no longer have to deal with that. It is simply.... Here is how many square inches of space you have. Here is how much the work you want cost per square inch. It's simple and clean. You don't cheat yourself and no one feels they have been cheated.

I would encourage folks to go back to a structured pricing system if you are not already using one. It save headaches and frustration for everyone.

My 2 Cents,

Ray

 

[Sam]

If your bank suddenly increased your house payment by 5 or 10% you'd probably be furious. If you have an adjustable rate mortgage, then you know up front that your house payment can fluctuate.

If a customer is aware that the price might be higher based on certain or unforseen circumstances, then you have the option to raise the price. If not, then you must complete the job at the quoted price and learn from your mistake. Even as a professional with 28 years at the bench, I still underquote from time to time. Fortunately I'm fast enough that I make up for it on other jobs and it doesn't cause a problem.

Like sore fingertips to the string instrument player, this is a rite of passage of the hand engraver, and part of 'payin' your dues'.

~Sam

 

[KCSteve]

Ray

I like your idea of doing a 'sample book' of square inches - and recording the time it took you to do them.

Being a beginner I have yet to have to worry about customers, but I'm (hopefully) getting close to that point. I agree with the experts here. If you quoted $XX and a problem comes up (voids, etc.) then you discuss it with the customer and they either pay the extra or you can't continue. If you come up with some great idea to make things better then you either do it on your own nickel or, perhaps, talk it over with the customer to see if they want the extra. If they do it would seem only fair to give a reduced price for that (since it's an add-on at your discretion).

 

[Christopher Malouf]

I think all of the answers here are very thorough. If you are going to take something in, be certain what you are dealing with before you quote ANYTHING. I don't engrave too much gun stuff but when I do, I always manage to shoot myself in the foot when I make a quote ..... no pun intended but I just seem to get stuff that not too many people have done (like that L.W. Seecamp pistol ... (cringing)) Hardness of any metal can make a job 5 times longer to complete. Before you know it, you've started 3 jobs and have realized that you have grossly underestimated the amount of time to complete each one and you've just realized the kids at Mikky D's are making more per hour.

Re-negotiating is a difficult thing to do. No customer wants to hear that a job is going to cost twice as much. There are unforeseen obstacles that are not your fault but under-quoting because you didn't do your homework or were uncertain about a metal hardness is certainly not the customer's fault. It's part of the learning curve and mountain we all have to climb.

Posting a question here about a particular piece you are contemplating taking in is a good start. See if anyone has engraved one before. Also contact the manufacturer for the material details. Is is plated? Is it hardened? Is it 14k gold or better? etc. etc. etc.

If you are still uncertain of a job, just politely refuse it (just trust me on this one buddy). If you do quote a customer a price, be clear that it is for the engraving ONLY. Any prep or post finishing/polishing is additional. If it's something that needs to be disassembled and re-assembled ... throw that in the final price too. You can always bump some of these costs up a little to recover your loss in the under-quoted price.

Some customers will try to haggle you down or ask if you can do a little more here or there. There's a point where haggling becomes an insult. Don't give your work away .... it's unique, one of a kind and it's your work. Be firm and confident.

I think I may have ranted a bit....sorry 'bout that. Hope this all helps.

Regards,
Chris

One more thing .... don't forget to add in some time for design, layout and artwork. Some customers give you something and say "go for it". Other's expect hours of hand drawn ideas. Engraving time should include time spent with a pencil and paper as well .... not just actually cutting metal.

 

[John B.]

I’m with Sam 100% on this pricing thing.
Your client looks at you as the expert on engraving, including the pricing of the job.
If you set a price, stay with it. If you have a little experience and use common sense you should be pretty close in your quotations.
The old say “what you lose on the swings, you make up on the roundabout” is pretty true.
Some jobs go faster than you expected and others take a little more time but it all has a habit of working out even in the end.
Ray’s idea of square inch tiles of different quality and difficulty may be just the ticket for some people; he’s highly skilled in many areas including business.
My finding over the years is that the time to complete even the same type and quality of work per square inch is variable depending on my mood and power of concentration.
Therefore the square inch pricing method may be a good yardstick and starting point for an estimate but for me I need to consider the total job.
Metal preparation and finial finish, type of metal to be engraved shape of the surfaces and a guestimate of the hardness if the base metal, to name a few variables.
At best you’re only able to get close on pricing IMO. But give a price and stay with it.
If you or the customer aren't comfortable with the quote then don't take the job.

Having worked for myself in different fields and given price quotes for more than 60 years I can count on one hand the number of times my estimates have been faultless.
Like they say…….Ya gotta suck it up! Sometimes it’s chicken and sometime its feathers.
But it all works out in the end.

Please excuse my ramble, John B.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

I would have to agree................ A quote is a quote. It is a fixed price contract between the seller and buyer. It is extremley annoying for a customer when they go to pay for something and it's a higher price than quoted. Going the extra mile for the customer is the sellers choice and they shouldn't be expected to pay for it.

It is a good idea to add slightly to your quote to cover any variables that you may be unsure of.

An estimate between X amount and X amount is different. If there are unknown variables in the job like surface texture, hardness/softness of canvas, inlays, contours etc.................then that should be stated from the start. But be honest. If you know full well that you are going to be in the upper end of the range then say so.

Do not under any circumstances price your work too low just to get the job. Better to miss out and let some other mug do it on the cheap.

Accurate and consistant pricing of your work is 100% essential to running a good business. It tells the customer that you are a professional in all respects. It also leads to customer confidence. The law of swings and roundabouts always takes effect somewhere along the line. Win a few, lose a few, the trick is to win more than you lose.

Here's a link to an article about pricing your work that may be helpful http://www.awardsigns.co.nz/fega.htm

My 2 cents worth

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Ron Smith]

Sam got it right. Anyone who has been in the engraving field for a number of years adjust to his own requirements, but the important thing he said was because he was so experienced and "fast" he could often make up lost time on another job. That will be the way it eventually works out most of the time. (speed is an important aspect as to the amount of money you can make,.......... but not at the expense of quality)

Another suggestion would be to have two prices. a minimum of $xx.00 and a maximim of $xx.00. I have covered my butt using this method many times, and you won't find too many who will balk if they have a perimeter to go by unless they feel it is totaly unreasonable, in which case, you politely decline the project.

On the otherhand, if you quote a price, and you want to destroy your chances of having a good reputation, then change your mind about what you told them it would cost.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, That would do it. They might not say anything to you, but they will tell their friends, and that is one of the most important avenues of good advertising that there is. If your business begins to dry up, don't wonder why. You left a sour taste in someones mouth.

Always stick to your quates and negotiate if there are other perimmeters to consider (already mentioned), like the others have said.

I have used Rays method and it works to some degree, but there are so many perimeters in an engraving shop, you couldn't possibly cover them all, so you might figure the time it is going to take you and add some bucks to cover any unsuspecting hiccups, (and don't do masterpieces) and then you do what Sam said. If you lose on this one, you make it up on the next one. It is easier if you are specializing in just a few items, but if you are not limiting your skills to just a few known products, it becomes much harder. When you have ten or fifteen years you get to where you can smell trouble. Sorry it has to be that way, but.....................
You learn to decipher things by weight, color, shineyness, smell and any other thing you can utilize (wizzardry) to inform you of what you are getting yourself into.

If you are slow, clumsy and fumbling, you are going to have to compete with Sam, John B., Ray, and multitudes of others who are fast efficient, and skilled. You can't expect to get their prices and they have definately earned their rights to them. To sum it up.......It is like unto a crap shoot!!...Welcome to the world of engraving.

Experience comes at a price my friends, and engraving ain't all there is to it.

Ron S

 

[Ray Cover]

Andrew,

I agree with what you say with one exception. It has been my experience that when you give a range between X and X the customer rarely hears the last X and seems to always expect the first X.

I really think it is better to to just quote the highest X if the potential exist for it to end up there.

Ray

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Ray

Oh Yeah!!!...................it's called selective hearing

Generally I only give that sort of answer if a customer (in my sign business) is making very general enquiries and trying to establish a price range for budget purposes. Once they come back with a bit better idea of what they are after, then I quote with a fixed price. Even then, it's surprising that some people still think the final bill will be cheaper than the quoted price.

Whoever said "life is supposed to be simple"

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Dulltool]

If it's a repeat customer I will price it a little high then charge a slightly lesser amount when finished. It's good PR that seems to work for me.

 

[Mike Cirelli]

I agree with Sam and Ray but as John stated you have to pay attention to the variables. Like what Tim ran into. You have to really study what your going to work on at take in. The best thing, is to put it in writing with the customer signing and getting a carbon copy, or an email with the OK to the price stated clearly by the customer (save the email). If they come back and say you quoted less than what the price is, you got proof. If you underestimate, oh well live and learn. It sucks and it happens to everyone. But I found in jewelry if you want to up sale them a bit after take in that can work. You can even get some well earned respect in certain situations.

 

[Rob Blanton]

I ‘d like to thank everyone for their comments. As the manager of a printing company, I quote prices for jobs every day.
I don’t beat engravers down on their prices, nor do I expect to pay $2000 and have the finished product look like a $4000 engraving job. I do set a budget for a project with a window to work in...... lets say $2500 - $3000.
If the engraver can do the project within this price range, we have a gentleman's agreement. If they can’t, I understand.
If, in the process of creating the artwork, the engraver has ideas to improve the project I want to hear them. If there is going to be an increase in the cost of cutting the piece, this needs to be discussed before the cutting begins.
I honestly want the people I work with to be paid for their time, and I expect to pay the agreed upon price. This is how long- term business relationships are developed.
As a dealer of embellished custom knives I set a price range for two major reasons.
1) I have 6 to 10 projects in the works at any given time. I must plan my budget around the completed cost of the knives.
2) I have to know what price a completed project is going to sell for.

Thanks again,
Rob

 

[John Weninger]

Just do the job. Excellence and respect are earned from veracity and consistancy. Next time you will quote a better price.

 

[Christopher Malouf]

Andrew,

I agree with what you say with one exception. It has been my experience that when you give a range between X and X the customer rarely hears the last X and seems to always expect the first X.

I really think it is better to to just quote the highest X if the potential exist for it to end up there.

Ray

Ain't that the truth.

 

[Weldon47]

To me, the most important thing here is to be a man of your word. I know that sounds out of step and old-fashioned but it is something I try to live by. Personally, when I give a quote, I stick to it even if I have to eat beanie-weenies for a while to recover (did that some in the beginning, not so much anymore, thank goodness!)
As you become well-versed in the styles you work in it becomes much easier to judge what kind of time will be involved in a project. I realize that there are days where I am much more productive; there are also times when I should just go fishin. In the end I suppose it all evens out.

To summarize, when the client feels that they have been treated fairly by you, received the quantity and quality they wanted from you(perhaps more on occasion) and are just plain thrilled with the work, they'll be satisfied and will let others know about it too.
That is what makes this engraving thing so cool; you put your heart and passion into it and somebody else loves it too (and they let you know how much by paying you money!!!)

My two cents worth,
Weldon

 

[lesholmes]

Hey,

Weldon,

I am a 65 year old widower who lives alone. Please don't make my beanie-weenies sound undesireable.

But, of course I understand what you mean. I made custom jewelery for many years and some times won and sometimes lost.

Regards,

Les Holmes

 

[Weldon47]

Les,

Sorry, I really didn't mean to offend, please forgive! At times (when I first started in the late '70s/early 80's) it was beanie weenies with neither bean or weenie. As I recall, I was a whole lot thinner back in those days!
Could it be that learning to give an accurate price quote to a client can affect your weight?
Hey folks, we could be getting in on the ground floor of the next big diet craze, the "engraver's diet"?!
I can see it now: How to give your body that chiseled look..........

Weldon

 

[Ray Cover]

OK, OK Now your steppin on toes