KSnyder
Elite Cafe Member
Hello all, I got some push gravers to sharpen and I don't use them often. Do I need a shallower angle heel on these? Help!
Kent
Kent
push graver sharpening
- Thread starter KSnyder
- Start date
Marcus Hunt
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
hi Kent
There is definitely a difference in setting up to push engrave I find. I can't seem to push a graver that I set up on a power hone using a fixture for love nor money. But give me my old stone and tools and I'm away. I find that when I set up by eye my angle of attack is much steeper than with air assist. But don't ask me what angles I use cos I just couldn't tell you because I don't know! It's just experience and knowing what shape of heel will work for you.
cheers,
Marcus
There is definitely a difference in setting up to push engrave I find. I can't seem to push a graver that I set up on a power hone using a fixture for love nor money. But give me my old stone and tools and I'm away. I find that when I set up by eye my angle of attack is much steeper than with air assist. But don't ask me what angles I use cos I just couldn't tell you because I don't know! It's just experience and knowing what shape of heel will work for you.
cheers,
Marcus
Ken Hurst
Elite Cafe Member
Yeah, I agree with what Marcus said, we could probably swap tools and both of us keep on cutting after a few minutes adjusting. It's a feeling you get while sharpening them --- you wil remember how much heel you had and alter to suit. Good luck, Ken
Iv'e just ruined a weeks work on a pendant because of this problem ... i'm push graving and just started using the lindsay style of point but didn't realize it was meant mainly for airgravers.
It cuts better than ive ever done before and i want to keep the cutting properties with out changing it too much.. anyway... my question is ...
If i raise the 2degree clearance angle higher will it keep the bright cut properties with out jumping around in tight turns? because now i have to keep enormous pressure on the tip and maintain a incredibly low clearance angle to make any kind of tight bright cuts, thrown out my neck and back already lol.
The reason i'm asking you fine folk... is because im lacking a power hone and cant afford one anytime soon and hogging off them long clearance angles is back breaking to say the least.
It cuts better than ive ever done before and i want to keep the cutting properties with out changing it too much.. anyway... my question is ...
If i raise the 2degree clearance angle higher will it keep the bright cut properties with out jumping around in tight turns? because now i have to keep enormous pressure on the tip and maintain a incredibly low clearance angle to make any kind of tight bright cuts, thrown out my neck and back already lol.
The reason i'm asking you fine folk... is because im lacking a power hone and cant afford one anytime soon and hogging off them long clearance angles is back breaking to say the least.
push graving lindsay tool
i bought an airgraver several months ago. i haven't used the special lindsay patented graver in the airgraver yet . i think this tool geometry is so well thought out, if you alter it, you'll surely make it take a turn for the worse. i have been using all my regular gravers in this tool, including the ones i do push graving with. the only thing i've done is to cut several of the gravers in half. this enables me to actually create a second graver from the cutoff piece. for me switching between gravermeister, airgraver, or push graving is just a matter of of maybe holding my hand a bit differently for each way. anyway, the gravers work well for me no matter which way i make them work. hope this can help a little bit.
i bought an airgraver several months ago. i haven't used the special lindsay patented graver in the airgraver yet . i think this tool geometry is so well thought out, if you alter it, you'll surely make it take a turn for the worse. i have been using all my regular gravers in this tool, including the ones i do push graving with. the only thing i've done is to cut several of the gravers in half. this enables me to actually create a second graver from the cutoff piece. for me switching between gravermeister, airgraver, or push graving is just a matter of of maybe holding my hand a bit differently for each way. anyway, the gravers work well for me no matter which way i make them work. hope this can help a little bit.
just went to see my master today and he laughed when i explained the Lindsay patent pending point... he said "this guys trying to patent a graver configuration thats bin used for hundreds of years?" I explained the point more to him .. maybe i didn't make it clear i thought. He laughed even harder after i showed him the website, he pulled out of his drawer and showed me a tool with the exact same configuration not as mine but the 2deree clearence and everything. He told me that this way of sharpening is used for fine lettering for ages. "whos this Lindsay guy that he thinks he invented it?", "and what makes him think he can patent it". I was kind of stumped.
But i trust my teacher implicitly we only worked together off and on but this guy can write a book on everything about jewelery and metal smithing. He made my jaw drop while i watched him make an ingot of silver into the stuff you buy from a jewelery shop in an hour.
anyways just had to add that because i thought... id might show him a thing or two about gravers, made a giant ass of myself lmao....
But i trust my teacher implicitly we only worked together off and on but this guy can write a book on everything about jewelery and metal smithing. He made my jaw drop while i watched him make an ingot of silver into the stuff you buy from a jewelery shop in an hour.
anyways just had to add that because i thought... id might show him a thing or two about gravers, made a giant ass of myself lmao....
my friend, till you've truly made a jackass of yourself, you really aren't human. problem is, i do it all the time ! i cant seem to break the habit.
Tim Wells
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
If you change any of the angles like the face for instance it will throw off the others and your heel won't be parallel anymore but will become more of a semi-parallel taper.
I found this out the hard way by trying to increase the face angle by making it 55 degrees rather than 45 to cut a monogram on a Kershaw knife that was harder than woodpecker lips! Well, I ground everything else with the Hamler fixture and the universal template which is what I mostly use and changed only the face angle to strengthen it up. When I did, the heel became tapered and wasn't perfectly parallel.
The Lindsay grind is a combination of angles that work best together for the choicest all around shape to get as many benifits from one graver shape; such as wide bright cuts, tight bright turns without the heel drag burrs and so on.
I'm like Markus, I cant push a graver or hammer one with a fixture ground graver either. However, I have not been trained up in the traditional way either so that may have a lot to do with it but I do intend to someday learn hammer and chisel. I think one might need steeper relief angles so you can hammer or push with your knuckles farther away from the work. There's my 2 cents worth and now I'm broke
I found this out the hard way by trying to increase the face angle by making it 55 degrees rather than 45 to cut a monogram on a Kershaw knife that was harder than woodpecker lips! Well, I ground everything else with the Hamler fixture and the universal template which is what I mostly use and changed only the face angle to strengthen it up. When I did, the heel became tapered and wasn't perfectly parallel.
The Lindsay grind is a combination of angles that work best together for the choicest all around shape to get as many benifits from one graver shape; such as wide bright cuts, tight bright turns without the heel drag burrs and so on.
I'm like Markus, I cant push a graver or hammer one with a fixture ground graver either. However, I have not been trained up in the traditional way either so that may have a lot to do with it but I do intend to someday learn hammer and chisel. I think one might need steeper relief angles so you can hammer or push with your knuckles farther away from the work. There's my 2 cents worth and now I'm broke
He said the same thing is in the Meeks book, the basic one on engraving. Anyway how the heck do i know if hes wrong the guys bin engraving for 40years, and me 4, i know for a fact he wouldn't want me saying his name.
Besides whats so revolutionary about it ?? I mean its just basic graver configuration with a 2degree clearance angle.. I'm sure since the invention of gravers that someone has thought of doing it, i just changed my clearance angle to 3degrees and its works a lot better now for me.
Besides my post wasn't meant to put down Lindsay and his stuff.. it was just funny to me, because when ever i think i'm doing something new my teacher laughs at me like Pai Mei from kill bill 2.
Besides whats so revolutionary about it ?? I mean its just basic graver configuration with a 2degree clearance angle.. I'm sure since the invention of gravers that someone has thought of doing it, i just changed my clearance angle to 3degrees and its works a lot better now for me.
Besides my post wasn't meant to put down Lindsay and his stuff.. it was just funny to me, because when ever i think i'm doing something new my teacher laughs at me like Pai Mei from kill bill 2.
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Well, the fact is that there are only a few configurations that will cut the way a graver should, but that is determined by purpose. However, the geomitry that accomplishes that is the same, It doesn't look the same, but the principal is observed or the tool just won't cut. The fact that the sharpening fixtures give you a definate formula to follow, allows you to get to cutting rapidly with the least amount of guess work. Sharpening by hand is more by feel than by knowledgeable angles. Lapping and stropping applies the smoothness of cut and the turning potential of the tool. That is why no one can tell you what the angles are when they sharpen by hand, but the geometry that makes a tool perform is the same except for the finnesse of the tool. A dull saw will cut, but not quite as effeciently as a sharp one with proper teeth angles. The main difference in the hand sharpened tool is it takes the hard angles off of the point that restrict the tools best potential. Also you, in your study and application, will find what works best for you in your struggles with sharpening, both with the mechanical devises or the hand methods.
I don't think it is anyones intention to run anyone down. We are simply giving information that has been around for a long time. The fact that someone can reproduce a facsimili with known proprotions is a definate plus for the beginner. Otherwise, you would have to struggle with it for a long time by trial and error. I have used the graver that Lindsay makes and it performs as good as any and better than some, but not any better than my own hand-sharpened tools when I get it right, and as an all around tool, it will accomplish about anything you want to do. But you can reproduce this same geometry by hand not knowing any of the angles as it is worked out through experience. There are actually two clearance angles. Hand clearance and tool clearance. You can accomplish both with the faceted tool. I used to curve the shank of the tool for a script graver for hand clearance and then get the tool clearance at the tip of the tool. The curved shank gives a smoother turn for heavy cuts and there is sort of a built in lift because of the curve, if you know what I mean. I did a lot of lettering and this was the primary tool for that. It would make wide flared cuts very nicely. I got the tool tip clearance angle by stropping on 4/0 paper similar to the way jewelers used to shape their anglets for bright cutting. These newer, modern sharpening methods, with the exception of the Lindsay technique are only a starting point that gets you to cutting pretty successfully right away. It is a very personal thing however due to hand, posture configuration, depth of cut, etc. The tearing or raking of the outside edge of the cut is a sign that you have not reproduced the proper angles for cutting, and that is relative to the depth of the cut you intend to make............ I hope this information helps you understand the tools better and how they work......and that is my twenty cents on the subject......Was the clearance you mentioned (3 degree) hand clearance or total clearance? If the 3 degree lift is total clearance, I would think you will need more clearance, but then each one has his own preferences. ....Ron S
I don't think it is anyones intention to run anyone down. We are simply giving information that has been around for a long time. The fact that someone can reproduce a facsimili with known proprotions is a definate plus for the beginner. Otherwise, you would have to struggle with it for a long time by trial and error. I have used the graver that Lindsay makes and it performs as good as any and better than some, but not any better than my own hand-sharpened tools when I get it right, and as an all around tool, it will accomplish about anything you want to do. But you can reproduce this same geometry by hand not knowing any of the angles as it is worked out through experience. There are actually two clearance angles. Hand clearance and tool clearance. You can accomplish both with the faceted tool. I used to curve the shank of the tool for a script graver for hand clearance and then get the tool clearance at the tip of the tool. The curved shank gives a smoother turn for heavy cuts and there is sort of a built in lift because of the curve, if you know what I mean. I did a lot of lettering and this was the primary tool for that. It would make wide flared cuts very nicely. I got the tool tip clearance angle by stropping on 4/0 paper similar to the way jewelers used to shape their anglets for bright cutting. These newer, modern sharpening methods, with the exception of the Lindsay technique are only a starting point that gets you to cutting pretty successfully right away. It is a very personal thing however due to hand, posture configuration, depth of cut, etc. The tearing or raking of the outside edge of the cut is a sign that you have not reproduced the proper angles for cutting, and that is relative to the depth of the cut you intend to make............ I hope this information helps you understand the tools better and how they work......and that is my twenty cents on the subject......Was the clearance you mentioned (3 degree) hand clearance or total clearance? If the 3 degree lift is total clearance, I would think you will need more clearance, but then each one has his own preferences. ....Ron S
Ron i mean the long relief clearance is what i changed to 3 instead of 2 with 15degree long heels at 45 each and a 45 face.
Seems to work a lot better for me but i don't have an engraving ball but a homemade one, i think if
i ever can make enough money to buy the proper block let alone cover overhead im sure my angles will change.
I know this for a fact,simply because i've borrowed a buddy's block for a week and did 6 bracelets on the wax board at once in a week, with the homemade ball i'm on now i'm lucky to get a "well made" bracelet in a week.
i don't care what anyone says, tools make the difference between the hard way and the easy way. I seen a video on youtube a year ago of a kids first try at engraving at a gunshow and the kid was doing better cuts than me using an air graver with a block an microscope. After that my whole attitude about skill changed.
Seems to work a lot better for me but i don't have an engraving ball but a homemade one, i think if
i ever can make enough money to buy the proper block let alone cover overhead im sure my angles will change.
I know this for a fact,simply because i've borrowed a buddy's block for a week and did 6 bracelets on the wax board at once in a week, with the homemade ball i'm on now i'm lucky to get a "well made" bracelet in a week.
i don't care what anyone says, tools make the difference between the hard way and the easy way. I seen a video on youtube a year ago of a kids first try at engraving at a gunshow and the kid was doing better cuts than me using an air graver with a block an microscope. After that my whole attitude about skill changed.
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austin
Member
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2006
- Messages
- 46
I find some video of using push graver .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dY2O7W6itYw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GObVRwm0UGw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dY2O7W6itYw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GObVRwm0UGw
Tomyboy, An engravers vise, and holding your work secure is a definate plus. You can engrave on a pad or other methods, but the ball gives you much more flexibility and control with no drag. Your money would be well spent, and if you are going to do good work, you will have to invest something into it. Don't think you would regret it, but I understand the money problem. Everything is so expensive now days.
Zernike, I don't think you could learn anything from pictures, but I did all of my work with hand-push methods until just recent years. The points are so subtle in their characteristics, that the camera wouldn't show those slight visual values and it is hard to understand by looking anyway, unlike the crisp angles of the calibrated sharpening tools. Someone would almost have to show you, and then you have to train yourself to reproduce what you can't really determine by sight so much. The hand push tool is not designed to cut deep. That is where the chisel comes in, but finesse is the key to handling the hand tool for all applications and they are many.
The tearing or raking of the outside edge of the cut is usually and most commonly cause by trying to cut too deep, or too long of a tool clearance heel or facet. You need to understand the configurations and purpose of the point geometry and that is hard to explain on this forum. However, by hand sharpening, you don't have those calibrated references to go by. As I said, it is done by feel, and that takes practice and experimentation.
I have long since quit engraving in the lettering trade, so I don't have a shop anymore. I have no lettering examples to show you. sorry! Also, I lost my thumb a couple of years ago and can't push a graver except for very light strokes. That thumb acted as a brake and pivot ( not necessary with pneumatic tools) and was half of my trianed sense of touch. I have to use a gravermax now for this reason. I can cut hairlines, but that doesn't require much muscle. It would scare me to death to try a big script monogram by hand on a customers product now.
A wider point helps to solve the tearing problem, but 120 degrees is about as wide as you can control easily. Wider than that and you start to run into problems. A shorter tool clearance angle or facet might help also. A long facet will cut good straight lines. A short one will cut curves better. The short facet should not be over a few tenths of a millimeter, but that is relative to the weight (depth) of the cut you wish to make.
Sorry I can't help you more......Practice, practice!........Ron S
Zernike, I don't think you could learn anything from pictures, but I did all of my work with hand-push methods until just recent years. The points are so subtle in their characteristics, that the camera wouldn't show those slight visual values and it is hard to understand by looking anyway, unlike the crisp angles of the calibrated sharpening tools. Someone would almost have to show you, and then you have to train yourself to reproduce what you can't really determine by sight so much. The hand push tool is not designed to cut deep. That is where the chisel comes in, but finesse is the key to handling the hand tool for all applications and they are many.
The tearing or raking of the outside edge of the cut is usually and most commonly cause by trying to cut too deep, or too long of a tool clearance heel or facet. You need to understand the configurations and purpose of the point geometry and that is hard to explain on this forum. However, by hand sharpening, you don't have those calibrated references to go by. As I said, it is done by feel, and that takes practice and experimentation.
I have long since quit engraving in the lettering trade, so I don't have a shop anymore. I have no lettering examples to show you. sorry! Also, I lost my thumb a couple of years ago and can't push a graver except for very light strokes. That thumb acted as a brake and pivot ( not necessary with pneumatic tools) and was half of my trianed sense of touch. I have to use a gravermax now for this reason. I can cut hairlines, but that doesn't require much muscle. It would scare me to death to try a big script monogram by hand on a customers product now.
A wider point helps to solve the tearing problem, but 120 degrees is about as wide as you can control easily. Wider than that and you start to run into problems. A shorter tool clearance angle or facet might help also. A long facet will cut good straight lines. A short one will cut curves better. The short facet should not be over a few tenths of a millimeter, but that is relative to the weight (depth) of the cut you wish to make.
Sorry I can't help you more......Practice, practice!........Ron S
poe1
Member
I just eyeball the graver point then test it on my thumbnail for sharpness,
then on a piece of material like I'm engraving, then refine the heal.
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