Proof Marks

[Marcus Hunt]

I was just searching for something in the forum when I came across this thread,

http://www.engraverscafe.com/showthread.php?10651-leave-or-remove-proofmarks

Proof marks are a guarantee that the weapon, when new or after it has been altered in some structural way, is safe and won't blow up in the user's face.

I realise that the USA does not have proof law as such but in the UK (and Europe) proof law is "absolute". This means that in the UK tampering with proof marks or faking them will (if you are caught) result in a jail sentence. There are no mitigating circumstances, it is a "Go directly to jail, do not pass Go" sentence. Proof marks are one of the oldest guarantees of safety there is.

If I were a weapons collector, or wanted to buy a foreign imported gun in the US I would definitely look for proof marks as it's as much a part of the gun as the action, barrel or stock and lack of them would set alarm bells ringing. For example, if you wanted to purchase a high end English shotgun such as a Purdey and the barrels had no proof marks this would indicate that they weren't original and definitely not rebarrelled in the UK and that alone could more than halve the gun's value and there would be no guarantee that they were safe even (e.g. barrels can bulge or blow off the face of the action).

Okay, the gun might be of such an age that it might be "out of proof" but this is for a good quality gunsmith to ascertain if there are any doubts. In the UK it is illegal to sell an out of proof weapon.

My advice in dealing with proof marks is leave them well alone. To a collector you can ruin the value of the weapon if you remove them. They can be a pain to deal with whilst engraving but my advice is to somehow incorporate them into your design. If you are engraving an ex-military weapon this can be a pain in the butt as there is often no thought given to aesthetics whereas civilian/sporting models often have more thought as to how they are placed.

As I said, I know proof law is different in the US but the Cafe is now a global entity and there might be some novice engravers from other countries who are tempted to tamper with proof marks when they really shouldn't.

 

[BrianPowley]

Very good advice Marcus. Thanks for posting.

 

[JJ Roberts]

Marcus,Im engraving a Browning A-5 and the proof marks on the right side and stamped deep,Im going to leave them and engrave a tree around them.The two largest screws had serial numbers on them witch I removed because there in the way of the game secenes.Ruger now stamps there safety warning read the manual on the bottom of the barrels now,a dealer at the gun told me it's because of the cowboy action folks. J.J.

 

[Texasgerd]

To remove or not largely depends on the weapon and its intended use. Low grade Belgium guns I'd not be too concerned. I'd still want to know it was made in Belgium, and not being passed off as something else. I use a lot of older Belgium hammer guns as beginning stock, and upgrade the wood, refinish the metal, engrave, etc. End product is a very nice Christmas gift for a friend. Proofs are sometimes removed but I'm not concerned.
A Belgium made A-5, Westley Richards, or Simson loses value if the proofs are removed, while a turn of the century farmer grade hammer gun will not. Proof marks are necessary eye candy for most collectors, and to remove them detracts from the purchase. Shooters look at the weapon very differently. Most people are somewhere between the two.
I personally love weapons with all proofs intact as they represent the weapons history and tell a story if you know how to read them.

I agree this answer changes for Americans and Europeans due to differing laws. For the US guys, the answer is in the desires of the end user.

 

[Peter E]

Good information Marcus. Thanks for bringing it up.

 

[silverchip]

So Marcus, if it illegal to sell out of proof guns there, how does one obtain very old antique arms? There has to be a large collectors market over there,no? I have seen more than one show on the tely of antique arms covering the walls of old mansions in the countrysides.How did that happen?

 

[Marcus Hunt]

So Marcus, if it illegal to sell out of proof guns there, how does one obtain very old antique arms? There has to be a large collectors market over there,no? I have seen more than one show on the tely of antique arms covering the walls of old mansions in the countrysides.How did that happen?

Firstly, there are exemptions if the gun is of an obsolete calibre and not going to be fired. If, however, it is going to be fired then it must be in proof. Black powder weapons can be extremely dangerous if neglected so if you were to ever want to shoot say an 1840's Manton wall-hanger it would be better if it blew up going through reproof than in the field where it could kill or maim you.

Secondly, I have read of cases where modern black powder weapons from countries such as Spain have severely injured people. The barrels pass proof at the minimum pressures allowed legally and get exported to the US to be sold at places like Wally World. But if the new owner gets his powder measurements slightly wrong the load can easily exceed the proof pressure and the thing blows up! I don't know exactly how true this is though but it is why proof loads are normally much higher than standard ones.

I already stated that proof laws differ in the US, but for us Brits and Europeans its easier just to leave the proof marks well alone.

 

[SamW]

Marcus, I used to thing some time ago that some engravers did not put engraving on barrels because it can be difficult. However, it finally dawned on me that it was more likely a matter of not wanting to take a gun out of proof. Do you have any idea how much if any engraving can be added after proof at the breech and still stay in proof? I'm not talking about U.S. guns.