Practice Plate

[Tezash]

This is a practice plate that I composed the design and engraved it with power graver (GraverMax). The plate size is 2"X2", and it takes me aproximately 20 hours to finish it. Please feel free to leave your comments.

Thank you, Tez.

 

[jacques herbst]

think outside the box and keep your scrolls in the box or border.i am still a beginner myself and can not give you any real advice except for keep cutting.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Tez

Looking really good. By the looks of it your headed down the right track. All the elements are there and I suspect more time and practice will do the trick.

There are a couple of things I would perhaps consider. The two top scrolls are cut off by the border which flattens them.

From what I can see from the photo all of your lines seem to be the same depth. Both main cuts and shading. Perhaps try making the main cuts a bit deeper/wider so that they add more contrast to the engraving.

Another thing I would try is to go around the edges of your cuts tidying up the edges, and slightly beveling them, where the stippiling has gone onto the wall of the relief work. This will give your work a bit of POP

Again, this is only my opinion and others may see things differently

Cheers
Andrew

 

[BrianPowley]

You could also make the scrolls "slightly" larger and let them extend beyond the borders.
It's a neat effect to see the scrolls begin inside the framed border, but grow out of it.(Adds a ton of interest to the design to boot.)
You could also have the border start about 1/8" from the edge of the plate, let the scrolls grow out of and wrap around the borders..............a nice 3-D effect.

Looks good!

 

[Markofx]

Hi Tez,

I see alot of improvement in you're cutting, how long has it been since you purchased my equipment? Like I told you before, do the best work you can no matter if it's a practice plate or not. I'd say 20 hours is well spent. The biggest secret that engravers take to their grave, " PRACTICE"

Mark

 

[John B.]

Hi Tez
Thank you for your PM. Sorry I was late picking it up.
Generally speaking you have done a fine job. Great effort.
With a little more time you will be producing some wonderful work IMO.
Both Andrew and Brian gave you good advise.
Much of it saved me from saying the same things.
The only other thing is that the main stem gets thicker towards the middle.
Some people do cut them this way but it is difficult to make them look right.
A scroll is a stylized representation of a living, growing plant.
Growing plant stems tend to get slightly thinner towards their end.
And the leaves and developing leaves tend to be slightly smaller.
You have the leaves right but the stems could use a little more work.
That being said it is overall a very nice piece of work.
Don't be in a great hurry to cut something.
Draw it out on paper, set it aside far a day.
Then next day you will see all the good and bad points for yourself.
Hope this is some help. Let's see more from you, even drawings.
Best regards, John B.

 

[pilkguns]

I also got your PM, and I would'nt add anything to what has already been said, just reiterate, do some more!

 

[Marcus Hunt]

This is a tough one to critique; on the one hand, as a beginner, you've done really well but on the other there is a myriad of small mistakes which, if they could be addressed fully, could take this practice plate to a different level. The problem is the internet....whilst one can give advice it is not the same as being shown and watching someone cut.

The first thing that hits me is that, over all, the design isn’t that bad. What lets it down though is a flatness to the scrollwork and shading. I know good photography can help a lot but here we can see every line you’ve cut. As Andrew points out there is a uniformity of cut which unfortunately suffers from a lack of tonal finesse. Your cutting is good but what you need to concentrate on is starting the cut finely and gradually increasing the pressure so that when you finish the cut the bur pops out and you’re left with an elongated teardrop shape. This is the most basic of cuts and it is fundamental to good engraving. Also, when you cut there should be no burs or sharp edges left. The tendency that American engravers have is to sand it down a little after cutting. My advice to this is don’t! There should be no need to sand any engraving if it is cut well. If you do sand you’ll take away the finesse of the cuts leaving them flat looking. If when engraving steel you do find a slight roughness then run a piece of copper gently over it and this will knock off any sharp edges without ruining the over all look.

Secondly, you have relieved the background and stippled right up to the outlining cuts of the scrolls and leaves. This is a no-no! If you stipple over these cuts you are flattening the look of the piece. If you re cut around the scrolls you’ll be surprised how much more life you’ll get into them.

Thirdly, shading; be careful of over shading and of getting to close to the edge of the scroll. In certain types of scrollwork where shading is used to model the shape of the leaf it is permissible to run the shading off the edge. But be aware of over doing it. Too much results in a messy and coarse looking leaf. I’d have like to have seen just two, maybe three shading lines going into the head (knob) of the scroll. Instead you’ve gone too near the edge and don’t have the graver control to make the cut in one so you’ve over run and then restarted the cut with a very crude result. Also, when cross-hatching start off with wide spaced hatches getting gradually closer and closer together so you achieve a) shaping and b) graduated tone/shadow from grey to black

Next, as has also been pointed out previously, don’t run the scroll under the border as you have done. As Brian says, if you are engraving a design where the scroll disappears under and re emerges further on in the border fine but at this stage keep things basic. Learn the rules first and then bend or break them later. As it is it has spoiled the flow of the scrolls and has achieved nothing aesthetically by making them just disappear under the edge of the border.

Finally, if you are going to do anything with a practice plate other than just test a tool or a particular cut or shape, polish it! These rolled practice plates absolutely ruin any attempt at decent scrollwork. I promise you that if you cut a polished plate a) you’ll find it easier to cut and b) the end result will look ten times better than on an unpolished one!

Above all though you have done really well in this attempt. Keep practising, I see a lot of potential in you.

 

[Tezash]

Thank you for all of you, Marcus, Scott, John B, Brian, Mark, Andrew and Jacques. Your critiques are invaluble to me. I realy apreciated spending your valuable time to correct my practice plate. Using your advice and instruction my next practice plate will be better than this one hopefuly.

Mark, it has been now 6 months since I purchased your equipment (GraverMax) and 5 months since I start cutting seriously. I still have a problem with the sharpner, it is wobbling. I bought it back on ebay.

Thank you again, Tez.

 

[Markofx]

Tez,

I'd think about sending the power hone to GRS for a tune-up and a oil change, any wobble and your angles could be off by a degree which makes it more difficult to know your heel angles.
Keep drawing as your work is improving.
Mark

 

[AllanFink1960]

I dont have the experience to critique your work, but I wanted to comment on something I am trying to get my head around, concerning design choices, such as running the scrolls off the border. Some design fads come and go. For instance, when I was in art school in the early 80s it was considerd bad design to rest your text against anything at the baseline. Right now, its IN fashion to rest the baseline of text on photos, on thick lines, or various other shapes, and you can find examples of it everywhere. However, I have been reading Ron Smith's scroll books, and he clearly points out that engraving scrolls falls into a few distinct styles that have fairly strict rules...he list english, american, german, etc. and altho all three can be mixed in the same design, they are distinctive because of certain rules they follow. Yet each style allows a lot of freedom within the design. Personally I didnt mind at all that you let the scrolls go past the boundaries, but it sure caused a stir on here. It seems some things are a matter of taste, and others could be a matter of taste but "break the accepted rules" for the context of the rest of the piece you are doing.

Anyone else care to chime in and agree or disagree?

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Allan

Just about everything is a matter of taste and when it comes to design things become even more subjective. In my signwriting business I've seen that many changes in what's acceptable and what's not as far as design goes. Some of the designs today, if you did them 20 years ago you would have been shot.

Like anything I guess there are rules. I'm not sure that breaking them is the right terminology. Maybe bending or strectching descibes it better? Pushing the boundries is what makes anything evolve. In saying that, there are limits to anything and quite often it's a fine line between good and bad design. Usually we end up going full circle, reinvent the wheel and go back to basics.

Another thing that's worth thinking about is what the medium is. Signs, furniture, architecture and engraving all have common design elements but each one has rules specific to themselves.

Quite often it's the small things that make the big differences and make a job/work of art, either look ordinary or WOW.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Doc Mark]

Allan,

I've never formally studied design but I think part of the concerns about scrolls going under border, is that it gives the scroll a "flattened" surface that breaks the visual "flow". This break-up of the flow is also what makes other flats and "elbows" so noticeable. The eyes just seems to stop at these angles and they automatically rebel, often without a conscious realization as to WHY the design seems inferior. This is most noticed when the spine only SLIGHTLY disappears under the border. If you extend the spine or leaf element WELL ON TOP of the border, then it looks purposeful, and the flow is still unbroken. If you push the design WELL UNDER the border, with most of the spine disappearing and then reappearing, then it also looks ok. But, if the curved element just barely disappears, it looks like you incorrectly cut the line and the design suffers. The differences are subtle but significant.

Mark

 

[John B.]

Well said Doc Mark.
John B.

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Mark, you've expressed this topic of scrolls going under borders very eloquently and I couldn't agree with you more.

Allan, there is nothing wrong with what you express per say but what we have here is a beginner at a very early stage of development. Maybe 'rules' is too harsh a term and should read 'guidelines' but if you follow the rules from the off eventually one will reach the stage of wanting to break out from their constraint. If the early guidelines have be applied and followed what develops will still be aesthetically pleasing. If one breaks the 'rules' to early the fundementals of aesthetics and design will not be ingrained and this is one of the dangers of going the 'self taught' route. Being able to show one's work on a forum such as this however may help to overcome this danger because one is opening up to critisism

By way of an example there is an engraver (who shall remain nameless) who's work I've seen on other forums and that I was looking at the other day as it happens. There was something wrong in the way the leaves within his scrolls formed; they do what I call a 'fold back'. This means the engraver is trying to depict the underside of the leaf as it would if it was curling. Not fully understanding how this principal works, this particular engraver puts this 'fold back' on virtually every leaf within a scroll. Now there is nothing intrinsically wrong with this except in this case they go at virtually 90 degrees to the flow of the scrolls and, to be perfectly honest, it just looks wrong. There are no two ways about it each leaf looks stilted in its flow. I'm not sure what he's trying to achieve by doing this but I think this engraver is trying to develop his own style which is great. What's not so great on the other hand, is this fundemental flaw which is repeated over and over. Eventually, I hope that he may pick up on this error and correct it in which case he will have come around full circle and will be cutting scrolls in a more aesthetically pleasing way...... which is a bit like reinventing the wheel when it doesn't need reinventing!

So what Tez is doing isn't "wrong" as such, it just breaks the nice even flow of the scroll which is what he should be trying to achieve (along with good design) at this stage. There will be plenty of time for design experimentation later.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Quite right JC

Why would a student/ novice engraver want to listen to the advice and opinions of the so called masters on the internet forums like Hunt, Barraclough, Stolz, Alfano, Hurst, Pilkington, Lindsay, Small, Adlam, Hands and Welch?

Why bother taking a class with so called master engravers that are at the top of their game like Pederson, Griffiths, Rabeno, Scalese, Cover, Eaton, Dubber and De Camillas?

Why pay good money to attend a grand masters programme of some of the very best international so called master engravers like Churchill, Grifnee, Smith, Hunt and Creative Art?

Who would anyone want to read a book written by a so called master engraver like Ron Smith, a man that has spent a lifetime studying the art and is one of the few people that have committed part of his knowledge to paper?

Why bother buying inspirational books that show the works of so called master engravers like Brown Brothers, Lovenberg, Coggan, Pedersoli and Fracasse?

Why would anyone bother studying so called past masters like Klimitch, Knight, Nimschke and Kell?

The student of engraving that does any of the above runs the very clear danger of becoming a clone of any of these so called masters and producing paint by numbers engraving that has become so popular today.

How terrible.

Far better, in the name of art, to struggle on your own repeating the same mistakes that all of these so called masters have made and are keen to see us learners avoid. Far better to spend years in the wilderness wondering why our work isn’t improving and never understanding why.

Far better that we never learn the fundamental opinions of so called masters that have gone before, and still are, with us. That way we can take the rest of our lives to finally figure out what they could have told us on our first day at school had we the good sense to listen to them.

Trouble is, after years of practice and learning, by the time the student becomes a so called master engraver he won’t be able to pass on his opinions to future students for fear of turning them into clones of himself.

Andrew Biggs

 

[BrianPowley]

Being somewhat of a "hacker" myself, I humbly respect the opinions of all that post on these threads.
Hopefully, Taz will garner enough feedback from us to help further develop the skills to produce world class art.
At least ,I'm guessing that's why this particular thread was started.

To j.c.: You mentioned the huge expense of the GRS GrandMasters Program and you're correct.....it can be a budget buster. For what it's worth, I attended both weeks of the Grandmasters in 2006 (Griffne and Creative Art) and I'm here to tell you that I recovered my expenses in the first two jobs after those classes.
What I learned took years off my learning curve.
Maybe I was just lucky..............and if so, it sure was the first time in my life.

 

[Ray Cover]

I have my kevlar on so

I personally think their is a balance between the two extremes that one should be totally self taught and that one should get a head start by taking a class.

Let me say up front for those who do not know already, I run an engraving school and I am a human being so there may exist a bit of "conflict of interest" or bias in my view. To be fair I must put all my cards on the table and give full disclosure as it were.

I don't think that anyone is going to become a clone by taking a week long class or studying the work of others. Books and instruction can be very helpful, especially to the beginner. No matter whether the instruction is a formal class, a seminar, or just sitting and talking shop with a more experienced engraver. Things like sharpening, basic cutting mechanics, and cutting techniques can be taught in order to keep a new guy from floundering in frustration.

I learned the hard way, I did the trial and error, all the backward engineering while looking at what engraving examples I could find, reading every book I could find and gleaning what I could from guys at gun and knife shows. Do I think I am better off for travelling the hard road? No not really. The one thing that has helped me in my engraving career more than anything is the formal art training I received in college. Having someone help me with the mechanics of cutting and sharpening early on, combined with that formal art training would have taken me to my current skill level much earlier in my career. Engraving education does have its place.

That being said, it is important for every engraver to venture out and develop his own style and look.

Yes, there will be a lot of engravers who never do that. I doubt there is anything that can be done about those folks since the motivation to develop your skills into your own style comes from within. Without that internal motivation the individual just isn't going to do it. They should... but they won't. What can we do about it? probably nothing. If they cannot find that motivation within themselves we certainly cannot put it there for them. Sad and frustrating but true.

Now for those who do have that desire and motivation to be their own artist. I think it is a good idea for the rest of us to encourage them along. Help them learn to think outside the box and be creative. I truly beleive those folks will develop their own style regardless of whether they got help along the way or not.

Ray

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi JC

I can only speak from personal experience. So here goes……………….

I spent a lot of money to get to the FEGA Reno show this year. What did I learn? Bucket loads from some incredibly talented and generous people. Every one of them passionate about engraving and keen to pass it on. Every one of them accessible to a student like me. Sam Welch gave a seminar for an hour on photography. What did I learn? Lots. Joe Rundell spoke for an hour and a half on stock carving. What did I learn? Heaps.

While I was there I got to spend an hour with Phillippe Griffne outside the SCI show, drinking coffee and fagging away (that’s smoking in American before anyone gets the wrong idea ) Did I learn anything from him in that hour? Yes I did, and lots of it. So much so that I’m trying to put into practice on a floor plate some of the things he taught me. After that I got to spend time with my very good friend John Barraclough . What did I learn? Volumes.

Not one of them told me that there way was the only way. Every one of them encouraged the concept of “that if it works then do it, as it was only the finished job that matteredâ€. All of them approached their work slightly differently. All of them still enthusiastic about their work, even after all the years they had been doing it. All of them full of encouragement for new designs and ideas.

Hero worshipping and falling at their feet? I don’t think so. The people I met were big hearted, warm and generous human beings that were kind enough to share a little of their knowledge with me. Do I admire, like and respect them? Yes I do, very much so. The only word that comes close is inspirational.

Was it worth the money? Absolutely. Every single cent. I’m already thinking about next years trip.

Your certainly right about me not relaxing and fishing off the coast of Mexico………..I’m relaxing and fishing off the east coast of New Zealand.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Marcus Hunt]

J.C., for what it's worth, you speak a lot of sense and I agree with a lot of what you say. In the past (and I dare say today) a lot of 'production' engravers were content to churn out run of the mill work, with no artistic input, just to earn a living. But even among these engravers, as you have commented on before, each had/has an individuality and uniqueness. The vast majority served apprenticeships under a Master and whilst some were content and comfortable in continuing what they'd learned with no wish to take their skill to a greater level others, such as my father, were not. They pushed boundries and took on board other techniques and influences from other cultures. For example, carving from Austria/Germany, hammer and chisel work from Belgium, and gold work from the Middle and Far East to name but a few. But my father was not content just to learn these techniques and clone them. He used them as a catalyst for further experimentation and development.

Now, he approached a lot of these techniques by just observing, and as there was nobody at hand to teach him, then experimenting and there were a lot of disasters on the way. But it was only by observing what went wrong and then seeking to correct these mistakes that he got to where he is today. But the thing was he had a basic grounding in engraving and art. He learned the 'basic rules' and then stretched them but, having an artisic bent, he knew how to keep within the bounds of what could be termed "aesthetically pleasing to the western eye."

You are correct that there should be no rules to what is considered artistic, but there are to aesthetics and beauty, and art and aesthetics do not always meet on common ground. For example, I could take one of your watches and hack lines, throw up burs, cut wonky lines and call them scrolls and give it back to you and you'd probably say, quite rightly "What the F***! You've just screwed up $XX,000 of work!!!" and I'll turn to you and say "What right have you to say that....IT'S ART!" Like it or not, we live in a commercial world and we all have to earn a living or we'd starve. In order to do this the majority of engravers will have to follow or 'stretch and bend' the rules of scrollwork in order to appeal to the masses. Now this isn't to say things can't or won't change or to be a Ludite and say things MUST stay this way and the status quo must remain the same. New generations will expect different things and we engravers must be prepared to service the market and what it demands and so change to meet new challenges.

In my opinion, and it is only my opinion which I'm entitled to hold, this means garnering as great an understanding of the art at an early stage of development. This includes learning to use the tools of the trade and the basics of design, aesthetics and beauty and being able to execute them well. Then, and only then, can the novice engraver move on to 'bending the rules' and coming up with new designs. But if something in these ventures is incorrect and falls harshly on the eye, what is wrong with someone saying "I don't like that because -------"? If you put your work out there into the wider world expect critisism.
I dare say there are some people that don't like my style of work and fair play to them, it's a free world! So if I say "I don't like Mr X's work because of this or that and to my experienced eye it looks wrong," I'm entitled to do so. Don't worry, there will always be someone who thinks Mr X's engraving is the best there is and will be willing to pay for it even if Mr X changes his style because the punter is a fan of Mr X. Then again he may lose his old following and gain new fans, who knows?

With regard to Steve Lindsay's work, he is indeed a fine artist and craftsman and he may well have thrown out the rule book with his scroll engraving but I for one would love to see all of his early work right from when he first started by first picking up a graver. I wouldn't mind betting that if he were honest with us, he didn't start straight away with his unique style. I'll bet he picked up books and studied other engravings first and probably cut in the traditional styles before striking out and presenting the world with his unique style. Who knows, perhaps he was one of those blessed individuals (like Mozart) who'd never picked up a graver before and started engraving this style straight away. I'd love to know the history, so come on Steve if you read this, tell us some of your history and show us some of your early works, please. Another observation on this topic, the SL clones......there are only a couple of engravers that I've seen that show enough understanding of Lindsay's scrollwork to cut the style really well. The rest are poor imitaitons of the Master - perhaps SL should write 'a book of rules' about how to design and cut Lindsay style scrollwork

Regarding the Grand Masters Program, forgive me J.C., but I think you've not quite understood what it is about. It is not about falling to your knees in the presence of a Grand Master and crying "I'm not worthy!" Rather it is a Master Class. Have you heard of them? In a Master Class, already established engravers (some of whom are Masters themselves) take the time to invest in studying a certain Master's techniques. It's about picking his brains, finding out what and why he does certain things to get certain effects. It is about gathering an understanding and knowledge of the Master's styles and techniques and not blindly following in a paint by numbers fashion in order to become a clone of the Master. Why on earth would someone who is already a fine, established craftsperson and artist choose to do that? Sometimes it's about sacrifice (in this case time and money) in order to further one's knowledge. This is something quite new in the world of engraving as we go from being craftsman to artists. In the Arts in Europe though, this has been happening for centuries; Musicians, painters, sculptors have all spent time and money to study in Master Classes. If it's not your thing, don't do it. Nobody is forcing you to but please don't slag off or belittle those engravers who may finally get to meet and study under a Master Engraver who's work they may have admired for many years. You never know at sometime in the future you may be considered worthy enough to be called a Grand Master and asked to take a Master Class. I for one would love to know, for example, how you colour the engraving on the pocket watch on your website. It's beautiful and I would love to learn the technique, but not in order to become your clone!