I am brand new to engraving and just finished a great one week class using a GraverMax G8. I would now like to try engraving without a machine and be totally manual. I was needing some good resource books and information on how to do this. Thanks for any help.
Question: Pneumatic machine vs manual
- Thread starter cenew26
- Start date
tundratrekers@mtaonline.n
Elite Cafe Member
The art of engraving,James B. Meeks,Brownells has it.
John Shippers new book,available from steve lyndsay.
mike
John Shippers new book,available from steve lyndsay.
mike
Fred Bowen
Elite Cafe Member
Schippers book also available from the Nat'l Muzzleloading Rifle Association at www.nmlra.org.
Marcus Hunt
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Nothing wrong with going totally manual, that's how I started but be prepared for a huge learning curve compared to air assist. The main time consumer is creating muscle memory. If hand pushing you need to learn to push in a controlled manner and this often means two opposed actions e.g. moving the graver through the metal and creating resistance at the same time so you don't skid out of the cuts. Hammer and chisel isn't any easier as you need to turn or walk around the vise in some way plus you need to find the right hammer for you and then build the subtle rhythms required; it's not like banging a nail into wood!
I found some of my old practice plates the other day and removed the rust from them. They are dated about 6 months after I first started my apprenticeship. If I say so myself, the small scroll wasn't at all bad and was more than passable at a commercial level but the English large scroll....that was a different matter entirely. It's not got the required depth, the shading is ropey, dog-legs in the scrolls, etc, etc, but as I say this was only 6 months or so into my apprenticeship; that was a 40 hour week and I had a master to guide me.
If hand pushing or h&c is the way you want to go that's great but it will take a great deal of dedication and patience. Look to getting acceptable results in well over a year if you're only doing this part time and are having to teach yourself and don't be put off if you are still struggling 6 months down the line.
On the other hand, if you go the air assisted route it'll a) cost you a hell of a lot more to set up so you have to be sure it's something you want to do and b) you'll start (you already taken a course to guide your initial steps so you know this) to get good results much quicker. I've seen beginners achieve in hours what it took me weeks to get to the same level. Good luck!
PS, if you go the hand push route also be prepared for a lot of stabbing yourself in the beginning and a bit less as you progress. This is something that rarely (if ever) happens with air assistance.
I found some of my old practice plates the other day and removed the rust from them. They are dated about 6 months after I first started my apprenticeship. If I say so myself, the small scroll wasn't at all bad and was more than passable at a commercial level but the English large scroll....that was a different matter entirely. It's not got the required depth, the shading is ropey, dog-legs in the scrolls, etc, etc, but as I say this was only 6 months or so into my apprenticeship; that was a 40 hour week and I had a master to guide me.
If hand pushing or h&c is the way you want to go that's great but it will take a great deal of dedication and patience. Look to getting acceptable results in well over a year if you're only doing this part time and are having to teach yourself and don't be put off if you are still struggling 6 months down the line.
On the other hand, if you go the air assisted route it'll a) cost you a hell of a lot more to set up so you have to be sure it's something you want to do and b) you'll start (you already taken a course to guide your initial steps so you know this) to get good results much quicker. I've seen beginners achieve in hours what it took me weeks to get to the same level. Good luck!
PS, if you go the hand push route also be prepared for a lot of stabbing yourself in the beginning and a bit less as you progress. This is something that rarely (if ever) happens with air assistance.
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cenew26..... I started out with H&C and hand gravers and still use push gravers when engraving big & small game animals,birds and scenery on firearms and I also teach students in my class the traditional methods & power assist. I believe every one should try both engraving methods and get a better understanding of the art. The only time I stabbed myself with a hand push graver was when I was using a leather sand bag.
JJ
JJ
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Roger Bleile
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
"The only time I stabbed myself with a hand push graver was when I was using a leather sand bag."
I also only stabbed myself once. I rammed a #2 lozenge graver up to the handle into my hand between my left thumb and forefinger. It didn't actually hurt that much and healed pretty quickly but I learned a valuable lesson from the experience. If the same thing had happened with a #45 flat my left hand would probably been crippled for life.
I have mentioned this before but John Barraclough once introduced me to an elderly engraver who had done bright cut silver with a push graver for many years. I noticed that his left hand looked like it had been hit with a load of #9 birdshot. He told me that they were paid for piecework in that shop and had to work fast so he had stuck himself many times. One time the graver stuck in the bone and the foreman had to pull it out
I have never stuck myself using any kind of power assisted graver. I would like to note that while I began with H&C, after I transitioned to a powered graver I began teaching myself to use a burin. I really think that using my old Gravermeister helped me to learn to control the push graver.
Some might ask "why learn to use a burin if you have a power assisted graver?" To begin with, the old Gravermeisters with the cylindrical handpieces were not capable of doing the kind of really fine work that the current Lindsay and GRS tools can do. Nevertheless I still use the burin for the finest shading on really small banknote type figures.
From my point of view I think that if someone is doing engraving just as a hobby they can get a lot out of learning to use the manual tools. If one is going into engraving as a career then the powered tools will get one up and earning much quicker for all the reasons that Marcus wrote about.
One other thing about using a burin for gun engraving, while prehardened and antique gun parts can be lightly engraved with a burin, don't even think about engraving hardened gun parts like magnum revolver cylinders, automatic pistol slides, or high powered bolt action rifle receivers with a burin, especially the kind of deeply cut scrollwork prefered by most American collectors.
Over the years, American engravers, unlike their European counterparts, have gravitated to power assisted gravers for three main reasons. First because, beginning with the Gravermeister, all of these devices were invented and initially marketed in the US.
Secondly, most American gun engravers work in a secondary market where they receive their work from gun collectors who want an already completed (and hardened) gun customized and most of these guns are handguns. Most European engravers work on sporting shotguns and rifles from gunmakers who provide them with unhardened parts in the white. The power assisted engraving systems are better suited to engraving hardened gun parts.
The third reason American engravers prefer power assisted gravers is because they are mostly self taught, with no more than one or two five day classes to to aid their learning. In contrast, most European gun engravers have been trained by a master during a long apprenticeship or in a state sponsored school lasting from two to four years. There is no incentive for schools like Bottega Giovanelli, Leon Mignon, or the Berufsfachschule für Büchsenmacher Suhl to buy and maintain numerous air powered engraving systems for the students when they can get by with training them on inexpensive manual tools. Also most of the instructors in Europe do not use air powered tools so are not in a position to train others on them.
CRB
I also only stabbed myself once. I rammed a #2 lozenge graver up to the handle into my hand between my left thumb and forefinger. It didn't actually hurt that much and healed pretty quickly but I learned a valuable lesson from the experience. If the same thing had happened with a #45 flat my left hand would probably been crippled for life.
I have mentioned this before but John Barraclough once introduced me to an elderly engraver who had done bright cut silver with a push graver for many years. I noticed that his left hand looked like it had been hit with a load of #9 birdshot. He told me that they were paid for piecework in that shop and had to work fast so he had stuck himself many times. One time the graver stuck in the bone and the foreman had to pull it out
I have never stuck myself using any kind of power assisted graver. I would like to note that while I began with H&C, after I transitioned to a powered graver I began teaching myself to use a burin. I really think that using my old Gravermeister helped me to learn to control the push graver.
Some might ask "why learn to use a burin if you have a power assisted graver?" To begin with, the old Gravermeisters with the cylindrical handpieces were not capable of doing the kind of really fine work that the current Lindsay and GRS tools can do. Nevertheless I still use the burin for the finest shading on really small banknote type figures.
From my point of view I think that if someone is doing engraving just as a hobby they can get a lot out of learning to use the manual tools. If one is going into engraving as a career then the powered tools will get one up and earning much quicker for all the reasons that Marcus wrote about.
One other thing about using a burin for gun engraving, while prehardened and antique gun parts can be lightly engraved with a burin, don't even think about engraving hardened gun parts like magnum revolver cylinders, automatic pistol slides, or high powered bolt action rifle receivers with a burin, especially the kind of deeply cut scrollwork prefered by most American collectors.
Over the years, American engravers, unlike their European counterparts, have gravitated to power assisted gravers for three main reasons. First because, beginning with the Gravermeister, all of these devices were invented and initially marketed in the US.
Secondly, most American gun engravers work in a secondary market where they receive their work from gun collectors who want an already completed (and hardened) gun customized and most of these guns are handguns. Most European engravers work on sporting shotguns and rifles from gunmakers who provide them with unhardened parts in the white. The power assisted engraving systems are better suited to engraving hardened gun parts.
The third reason American engravers prefer power assisted gravers is because they are mostly self taught, with no more than one or two five day classes to to aid their learning. In contrast, most European gun engravers have been trained by a master during a long apprenticeship or in a state sponsored school lasting from two to four years. There is no incentive for schools like Bottega Giovanelli, Leon Mignon, or the Berufsfachschule für Büchsenmacher Suhl to buy and maintain numerous air powered engraving systems for the students when they can get by with training them on inexpensive manual tools. Also most of the instructors in Europe do not use air powered tools so are not in a position to train others on them.
CRB
kguns
Member
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2007
- Messages
- 96
Nothing wrong with going totally manual, that's how I started but be prepared for a HUGE :beatup:learning curve compared to air assist. QUOTE][
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The three vices on the floor I wore out. My current vice was Rocky Capace's vise from the FN engraving room in Herstal, I traded him a GRS Ball Vice for it. I have another Italian vice in the mobile studio, I'm on my third ball viceI still do about 33% of my current work with H&C.
Did we mention the HUGE learning curve!!!
Save yourself the aggravation, TIME IS MONEY in this Biz. Get any power assist and cut YEARS of time off your engraving carreer. I should apply the 8 second rule here and edit myself but the truth is a lot of engravers would not be where they are in their careers if it were not for these powered tools. Truely the first innovation in 400 years of engraving. I admire your willingness to try hand tools, you wll learn a little in a great amount of time. Especially if your working alone and without someone who know how to work with these tools. If you apply that drive to suceed with powered tools you'll do well.
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Kevin Scott
Elite Cafe Member
I think some good advice has been given here.
If you are going to go air power, why do you want to learn manual methods? Maybe you have a reason we have not thought of.
Whatever the reason, I think you should learn air power first, since you plan on going that route anyway. For a number of reasons.
Once getting skilled at air power, it will make manual power easier to learn. With push power you will be trying to learn two things at once: graver control and power control. Both are hard to learn. With air power, you can focus on graver control. Then when you learn that it will be easier to learn push power.
Much less frustrating to learn air power. Less likely to get discouraged and give up.
No doubt, as said, much faster learning curve.
I only do push power, and enjoy it very much. But it is a hobby for me. Plus I know that if I had a unlimited budget and could buy all the tools in the world, I would still not be a great engraver. But I am happy doing what I am doing. I work at getting better but progress is slow.
If you are going to go air power, why do you want to learn manual methods? Maybe you have a reason we have not thought of.
Whatever the reason, I think you should learn air power first, since you plan on going that route anyway. For a number of reasons.
Once getting skilled at air power, it will make manual power easier to learn. With push power you will be trying to learn two things at once: graver control and power control. Both are hard to learn. With air power, you can focus on graver control. Then when you learn that it will be easier to learn push power.
Much less frustrating to learn air power. Less likely to get discouraged and give up.
No doubt, as said, much faster learning curve.
I only do push power, and enjoy it very much. But it is a hobby for me. Plus I know that if I had a unlimited budget and could buy all the tools in the world, I would still not be a great engraver. But I am happy doing what I am doing. I work at getting better but progress is slow.
No doubt you can get in the game a lot faster with air tools, and a sharpening system requires little 'skill', so you're off and running cutting lines the first hour of practice. If your goal is to learn engraving and make income with it, then air tools will get you there quicker in my opionion. If your goal is to learn a traditional skill and work entirely by hand power alone and it's more a hobby than profession, then enjoy the journey using traditional hammer & chisel and push graver. Depending on your hand-eye coordination, hammer & chisel might come naturally to you or it might be extremely difficult to master.
bronc
Elite Cafe Member
From a time standpoint it is more efficient to hand push western bright cut engraving than it is to use power assist. And even if you use power, which I do most of the time, developing the ability to hand push will make you a better engraver. You will learn to use the vise more and your handpiece less which will yield better cuts.
Stewart
Stewart
Marcus Hunt
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
From a "time standpoint" I'd avoid using a microscope too, LOL! All the time saved by going to air assist was actually negated by the scope. Why? Because you tend to take more care and slow down not cutting as commercially. Unfortunately, it's one of those things that you get used to and, like air assistance, would I go back and do things the old, manual way? No way! Don't get me wrong, I actually still hand push my bulino scenes but as for scrollwork, no I'm a definite convert. Yes, it is good to be able to do things the 'old way' and I know if anything happens to my machine I know how to do it manually but I wouldn't choose to do it that way any more unless absolutely necessary.
But if you feel it's something you really want to do, go for it. But just because you've done a class using a GraverMax don't think it will have prepared you for this journey. Using power is like going camping in a 4x4, you can go where and when you want and carry as much 'unnecessary' gear as you like. Engraving using hand tools is like hiking and carrying everything you need for the trip (inc. food and water and tent) on your back. You're lucky to make 6 or 7 miles a day like this in the beginning and it's bloody hard work! So long as it's something you're sure you want to do, do it but do it til you master it. Just "giving it a go" isn't something you can really do and expect to get good results. It really is a commitment.
Good Luck
But if you feel it's something you really want to do, go for it. But just because you've done a class using a GraverMax don't think it will have prepared you for this journey. Using power is like going camping in a 4x4, you can go where and when you want and carry as much 'unnecessary' gear as you like. Engraving using hand tools is like hiking and carrying everything you need for the trip (inc. food and water and tent) on your back. You're lucky to make 6 or 7 miles a day like this in the beginning and it's bloody hard work! So long as it's something you're sure you want to do, do it but do it til you master it. Just "giving it a go" isn't something you can really do and expect to get good results. It really is a commitment.
Good Luck
Gemsetterchris
Elite Cafe Member
"The old school" have an advantage of having had to learn the hard way (as in many trades), then all this new fancy stuff comes along to make life easier.....
Are you intending to do this as a hobby or ...?
You can drill a hole in the wall with a hand wind drill or use an electric or battery drill, both produce the same result with varying degrees of difficulty.
Powered tools can do alot more, much easier.. but you still need to learn to use them , they are not magic wands.
I guess it`s all down to your financial situation & what you want to do.
If you want work with these tools for a living, these days you will need to have "powered tools".
The latest & greatest tools are not alot of use if you don`t know what you are doing with them....
Same goes for for all "handcraft" trades.
Are you intending to do this as a hobby or ...?
You can drill a hole in the wall with a hand wind drill or use an electric or battery drill, both produce the same result with varying degrees of difficulty.
Powered tools can do alot more, much easier.. but you still need to learn to use them , they are not magic wands.
I guess it`s all down to your financial situation & what you want to do.
If you want work with these tools for a living, these days you will need to have "powered tools".
The latest & greatest tools are not alot of use if you don`t know what you are doing with them....
Same goes for for all "handcraft" trades.
i like the "feel" of pushing. i don't get that with the power toys.i'm no longer able to do real fine work. when i could, at least on soft metals, i found pushgraving to be my choice.
James Roettger
Elite Cafe Member
I think learning to hand push is the best foundation for a beginner. I still do some hand pushing after 8 years with pneumatic. I can get better bright cuts in some situations by hand than by pneumatic because of the way the pressure is applied to the metal. I do a lot of bright cut jewelry patterning and I often use both hand push and power gravers on the same pattern selectively alternating between the two. Sometime I get in for service my old hand pushed stuff and realize that in some cases it might be better than my pneumatic work.
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