Note to teachers!

[Thierry Duguet]

When I first arrived in the US, McKenzie was inn, every one was imitating his style, his scrolls. As I have been on this forum I was surprise to see that most of what I see from upcoming engraver is more or less the same thing, large, bold, powerful ornaments, with as little as possible background to remove, which leave little place for finesse or subtilness.
I title this thread "Note to teachers" because it is their role to teach more than one style and I cannot believe that if they were doing so every one will choose the same style.
I would be interested to hear (read) your thoughts on this subject.

 

[SamW]

My experience is that if as a beginner you pick the style that most attracts your attention and work on that one style until you have learned to accomplish it with finesse you can then branch out to other styles using what you have learned to make that transition easier and faster. The main reason for picking that which really attracts you first is that you are more likely to work on it often and stick with it for the long haul of getting proficient at it.

Then the real fun of trying other styles and making up your own will keep you at the bench for the rest of your life!!

PS...Lynton once said that the reason he used his Victorian style so much was because it was so photogenic.

 

[Addertooth]

Western scroll-work isn't what drew me to engraving. I am more fascinated in fabricating and restoring work like the pictures below (not my work pictured).
Much of the oriental style is simple line engraving, embossing, 3d carving, inlay and patination.

 

[silverchip]

I agree with you Thierry, being able to teach more than one style or technique offers more to the student. I might teach but I also continually educate myself in design and art history as well as other related topics. Not only do I benefit,so does anyone that wants to learn from me. There are things that I still do not know and will never say I am done learning myself.

 

[GTJC460]

I agree that one should not limit oneself to any one particular style...however, one must know and understand the appropriate style(s) that are acceptable, desirable, and sellable for the firearm or whatever canvas one is working on. In addition, there are always budget constraints of clients. It's wonderful if you're independently wealthy and can do whatever you please, but for the average engraver making a living is most important. If you're paid for 30 hours of work, you don't put 150 hour into a project.

 

[monk]

not the teachers fault. as a student, one should carefully go over the plan of teaching before laying out the cash. all too often a student will go blindly into a "classroom of instruction" with no expectations except that of cost. the student should find what design/style concepts are being offered by the teacher or his/her instructors. i'd think all those teaching this art would be more than willing to provide this information without obligation on the student. so, where lies the fault ?

 

[Beathard]

Most of the full time gun engravers I know are engraving exactly what the customer wants and in the budget given. I wish I had the option to tell customers what they were going to get at how much they were going to pay without their input.

 

[Thierry Duguet]

I did address this thread to teachers because it is their job to open the eyes of student to multiple possibilities, the program should be design to do so. Having been a student myself I can see how overwhelming it can be to try something new, without proper guidance. I do not think that one need to execute a style perfectly before to move on to something different, one need to try it all, sometime one need to be force to study even what is not, at first, appealing.
I learn a lot from my client because they force me to do thing I would not do on my own. Practicing on multiple styles, even if you do not master any of them, give one flexibility and freedom. As I often say to my client I do not want to specialize on any one style even if it is to the cost of efficiency and productivity. It is more reassuring but less rewarding to execute a style one is familiar with but, unless one is push outside his/her comfort zone one is likely to work endlessly on the same thing as there is always something to improve on that one style.
As for the money aspect............ Yes sometime one charge 30 hours for a 150 hours project, I did, how else can one display his expertise when one is starting. Do you think that client are going to give you a $50,000 shotgun to do a $30.000 job if the only thing they can see of your work are 30 hours jobs. A 150 hours job for the cost of 30 hours is call an investment, you do not have to be wealthy to do so, you just have to want to be the one who would get that $30.000,00 project, not because it is more money but because it is more fulfilling. The satisfaction one get out of one's work is part of one's compensation, is it of no value to you?

 

[Thierry Duguet]

Most of the full time gun engravers I know are engraving exactly what the customer wants and in the budget given. I wish I had the option to tell customers what they were going to get at how much they were going to pay without their input.

Clients dictating what will be done to their firearm? I think not! Clients describe their like and dislike, with pictures they show you what make them tic but ultimately, when it came to engraving, the engraver is the expert, it is his job to tell them what work or not, it is his job to guide them toward a more satisfying result, of course the budget may not always be adequate but it is better to delay a project until more fund become available than to do something less than pleasing to the client or the engraver.

 

[GTJC460]

I totally disagree with you. And that's ok. You know the saying about opinions.

When I first started I bounced around quite a bit on different styles and techniques without much advancement in any one direction. I tell beginners to learn one good scroll and learn how to fit irregular areas with the scroll they know how to execute. Then branch out with different style leaves and combinations. Eventually you find something that you like, are good at, and most importantly clients like and are willing to pay for.

Yes. Doing a sampler piece that shows all your talents is a great way to broaden your client base. But I'd never give away my time. Do it on your own gun. Then if someone really wants it bad enough they pay the price you need for you to do something even better.

 

[Thierry Duguet]

not the teachers fault. as a student, one should carefully go over the plan of teaching before laying out the cash. all too often a student will go blindly into a "classroom of instruction" with no expectations except that of cost. the student should find what design/style concepts are being offered by the teacher or his/her instructors. i'd think all those teaching this art would be more than willing to provide this information without obligation on the student. so, where lies the fault ?

You assume that the students know what he is speaking about, it might be the case for students already in the trade but not for new comers. When I was first interested in engraving I was expecting my teacher to give me the tools to accomplish my design, I would not have known what to ask, the process was his responsibility, the learning and following instruction to the best of my ability was mine.

 

[GTJC460]

I get tremendous satisfaction from every gun, cup, bowl, ring, etc I engrave. I derive satisfaction from a job done well and a happy client. Every job I do I try to push things further, try different things etc.... It's the engraver's responsibility to push himself/herself to new and better things.

You and every American engraver have tremendously different backgrounds. I believe I read in Roger Bliel's book you were taught engraving at Liege or some other school in Europe. Well that's a totally different set of experience than what most American engravers experience. For the most part "we" might have 40-100 hours of "formal" instruction. The rest of it comes from personal enrichment by studying books, castings, and maybe a real engraved object occasionally. I know most of what I do comes from seeing something I like and putting the time in to do it on my own

 

[Thierry Duguet]

I totally disagree with you. And that's ok. You know the saying about opinions.

When I first started I bounced around quite a bit on different styles and techniques without much advancement in any one direction. I tell beginners to learn one good scroll and learn how to fit irregular areas with the scroll they know how to execute. Then branch out with different style leaves and combinations. Eventually you find something that you like, are good at, and most importantly clients like and are willing to pay for.

Yes. Doing a sampler piece that shows all your talents is a great way to broaden your client base. But I'd never give away my time. Do it on your own gun. Then if someone really wants it bad enough they pay the price you need for you to do something even better.

I am glad that you disagree, as I was never good at selling stuff and never wanted to get in the retail business, for me it was a smaller investment to make show piece out of my clients gun than out of my own.

 

[Thierry Duguet]

I get tremendous satisfaction from every gun, cup, bowl, ring, etc I engrave. I derive satisfaction from a job done well and a happy client. Every job I do I try to push things further, try different things etc.... It's the engraver's responsibility to push himself/herself to new and better things.

You and every American engraver have tremendously different backgrounds. I believe I read in Roger Bliel's book you were taught engraving at Liege or some other school in Europe. Well that's a totally different set of experience than what most American engravers experience. For the most part "we" might have 40-100 hours of "formal" instruction. The rest of it comes from personal enrichment by studying books, castings, and maybe a real engraved object occasionally. I know most of what I do comes from seeing something I like and putting the time in to do it on my own

Let me remind you that the thread was address to teachers and their responsibilities toward students.

 

[Beathard]

Teachers should teach the basic cutting skills that apply to all styles. Students should buy the Ron Smith books to learn about styles or take private advanced classes from people specializing in a certain style of interest.

When your customers get ****ed off, send them my way. I'll be happy to give them some good customer service.

Not listening to the customer: now thats funny.

 

[GTJC460]

I think you miss my point. I think the average American engraver is a teacher. They teach themselves what they know. Whereas you spent, I assume, several years in formal instructional environment.

 

[JJ Roberts]

I agree with Gerry Ron Smith book covers many scroll designs,another good book Art & Design Fundamentals by Lee Griffiths and learn to drawor you'll never be successfully,make time to draw. J.J.

 

[Thierry Duguet]

Teachers should teach the basic cutting skills that apply to all styles. Students should buy the Ron Smith books to learn about styles or take private advanced classes from people specializing in a certain style of interest.

When your customers get ****ed off, send them my way. I'll be happy to give them some good customer service.

Not listening to the customer: now thats funny.

You misunderstood me, it is not about ignoring the client, it is about giving advises and guidance in function of their tastes, desires and budget so as to give them better work. Considering that I have been busy full time for the last 30 years, that my sole source of income is custom engraving and that I have numerous return customer maybe I know more about customer service than you do.

 

[Chujybear]

This is dead on.
When I took jewellery instruction I dipped my toe in everything... Or mor precisely, my teacher exposed me to the breadth of possible jewellery techniques. Obviously a few short years is not enough time to master anything. But I left school with a sense of what was possible. And each technique I learned enriched the rest of my practice. Ultimately I cused in on a few things, but I continue learning new things. And each new thing strengthens the core of my practice.

I did address this thread to teachers because it is their job to open the eyes of student to multiple possibilities, the program should be design to do so. Having been a student myself I can see how overwhelming it can be to try something new, without proper guidance. I do not think that one need to execute a style perfectly before to move on to something different, one need to try it all, sometime one need to be force to study even what is not, at first, appealing.
I learn a lot from my client because they force me to do thing I would not do on my own. Practicing on multiple styles, even if you do not master any of them, give one flexibility and freedom. As I often say to my client I do not want to specialize on any one style even if it is to the cost of efficiency and productivity. It is more reassuring but less rewarding to execute a style one is familiar with but, unless one is push outside his/her comfort zone one is likely to work endlessly on the same thing as there is always something to improve on that one style.
As for the money aspect............ Yes sometime one charge 30 hours for a 150 hours project, I did, how else can one display his expertise when one is starting. Do you think that client are going to give you a $50,000 shotgun to do a $30.000 job if the only thing they can see of your work are 30 hours jobs. A 150 hours job for the cost of 30 hours is call an investment, you do not have to be wealthy to do so, you just have to want to be the one who would get that $30.000,00 project, not because it is more money but because it is more fulfilling. The satisfaction one get out of one's work is part of one's compensation, is it of no value to you?

 

[zzcutter]

I agree 110 PERCENT with Sam W