No Fear - OK maybe a little

[tldcowboygear]

Howdy Folks,

I finally got courage to post this drawing... It is a buckle plan with bright cut engraving (I am still working out the gun engraving drawing through Ron's book) Please take a look at this and let me know what you think. This is the first attempt at drawing a complete design. There are things that I like and things that I don't. It is strange, but when I completed the drawing I thought it was ok, when I got the pictures done and began editing them for posting I saw things that I thought were wrong. Wonder why I did not see them a. while drawing, b. when reviewing the drawing itself?

Thanks in advance for your time and critique.

D.C.

 

[Ron Smith]

DC, you have a well balanced, pleasing design. Study the structural aspects of the brightcut style. There is no stem on your spirals. Don't bring your leaves right to the spiral line, but leave a little consistant space where each leaf begins to merge with the spiral. The design is going to look a little enimic right at the place where the spirals seperate. Is the spiral backbone going to be the wriggle cut which is common in this style?Put a leaf in the crotch between the spirals. This will solve that enimic problem. Take the layout lines, (anything you are not going to cut) out of the drawing and mistakes will be more obvious. If there is going to be textured background areas, black them in hartily. This will also expose balance and enemia problems if there is any.

Personally, I would run a leaf off of the spirals on the tangs of the buckle to correspond with the flow of the round center piece, but that is taste more than anything. It would however, improve the flow of the design and unite, and enhance it so to speak.
Hope I haven't confused you, and if you need more explaination, feel free to ask.............Ron S

 

[tldcowboygear]

Thanks Ron. I will do some more drawing and post again. I am working on the other style of drawing each day. It gets better and I will post one day soon. The breaking down of the leaf to individual lines has been a help. That is the way I have been doing it when working through your books.

Ron, I cannot say thanks enough for taking the time to review my drawing and making comments. I am sure I will get there but may have more road to travel than most.

D.C.

 

[BrianPowley]

DC...You have some real "killer" potential with this shape....I could make a dozen different buckle patterns in an afternoon with this.
I took the liberty to print out your pattern and study it.
You've certainly are on the right track and it won't take much to make your pattern a real beauty.
Ron certainly has it nailed perfectly.Leaves in the crotches,fill in open areas, etc.,etc.
Adding a few more details to this pattern won't take hardly any more time and will greatly improve the final result.
I couldn't resist playing with the "shape" and although the sketch is very rough (I did it all in 15 minutes)
you can see a different interpretation.
(I know there's a ton of flaws in my sketch,it was done rather hastily but I'm only trying to offer some help)

 

[jbmartin]

I like your design, Brian.
Going by the pic, you would engrave the steel as well?
DC, one of the things I have done on this style of buckle is to forget the tang from the hanger and just put a hook on the front end like a plate buckle, keeps the tang from interfering with the work on the buckle and easier to put on both to wear and build in my opinion. I always have thought that anything with a tang should have a front end smaller than the back end if that makes any sense....

 

[Ron Smith]

DC, no, it is the same road. We all went down it, but you are doing fine. As I said, you have a good eye for design..........ride on DC, a few basic structural rules and practice is the key.
Ron S

 

[jdumars]

This kind of discussion and feedback is so wonderful to see. I am still a little floored by it! DC, great basic idea, and the comments/additions from Brian are incredibly relevant. One of the interesting things to examine from engraver to engraver is how they deal with certain aspects of design, like those great triangular spaces that form where spirals meet. These are some of the most identifiable elements in someone's work. It's good to draw these elements ad nauseum to find what appeals to you.

 

[tldcowboygear]

Wow folks, I am in awe of the responses. Thank you so much.

Brian - I thank you for the comments. It took me about 4 or 5 hours over 2 days to draw this. It just amazes me that you could take it and in 15 minutes make it look so good. I am going to try some things with it over the next couple of days. I will post. If you don't mind, I may use your leaf design in an actual engraving (when I get back to my shop or get my shop to me) just to see if I can make it work. I really like the "clamshell" look in the blank areas. And Brian, I am taking up on your dare!

I guess I should mention that this is a steel buckle blank and the areas where there are scrolls etc is silver. I typically use a cold blue solution after engraving which turn the steel a shade of gun metal grey and darkens the engraving.

JB- Could you expound on the tang idea. I am trying to picture it in my head but can't get around it. I tried to design around the tongue but it doesn't always work.

Ron - I re-read your 1st post and I forgot to answer a question. Yes I will use a 37 or 38 flat to wiggle line the backbones of the scrolls. Also what is meant by the "stem" on the spirals? Silly question I guess but I am not sure what you meant. Also when you leave the consistant space at the top of the leaves, would that need to be stippled or left bright?

Jdumars - I can't agree enough. This type of feedback is invaluable to me. My family and friends are not quite so willing to be rigorously honest with me, some of the folks that I have sold my stuff to are really complimentary about my talent but as a whole the arena that I deal in are not so discerning as my peers (not that I put myself in the same category as most of you folks but you know what I mean).

Thanks again all!

D.C.

 

[BrianPowley]

JB...........yep---I'd engrave most of it although I'm not exactly into "full coverage" of anything I work on.
It seems like every time I've tried to give full coverage to anything, I usually don't like the way it looks. That is my artistic "Achilles Heel". I don't have the best artistic abilities for full coverage engraving. I admire the ones that can pull it off.

DC----By all means, if it'll help you out, please feel free to play around with it.You can make it even better. Repetition is the mother of skill.
(You might want to "clean it up" a bit---it was done rather quickly)

 

[jbmartin]

DC, here are some pictures of the 2nd belt buckle I made back in 2001.
As you can see it has the same basic shape and size as yours, but I put the peg on the back.
Not having to worry about a tang laying on the front of the buckle is a plus, since you can use the whole area for initials or a brand or whatever.
When I build these steel buckles, for the peg or tang, I just use a box nail and silver solder it after sanding the head into a nice circle, this gives the peg a very large area for strength. I solder the whole nail on, let it cool a little, heat above the head about a 1/2" and then bend it to a nice curve, saw it off to length and then file the end round and smooth.
I use plum brown to brown finish them and the nail will take on the same color.
Putting it on the back still gives you the same look and also keeps the buckle very straight when worn with no worrys of it not laying flat. Not that a tang is bad or anything, this is just the way I like to build them.

Brian, I put a picture of another buckle in the "graver quality" thread, let me know what you think, one of my few attempts at "full coverage".

 

[Ron Smith]

DC, the stem I refer to is the double line appearance when you don't bring the leaves all the way to the spiral line. This creates what looks like a stem. The reason I asked you about the wriggle cut, is I knew this would fulfill this requirement to some degree, the wriggle cut giving you a stem, and you would start your cut along side the wriggle cut. Imagine this. Now remove the wriggle cut from the design and you have a blank space where the wriggle cut consumed that space. That would be a stem too. Does this clear that up?

If you are doing the traditional brightcut style, you would only stipple or texture around the designs not within them, not that you might not be able to utilize this principle in a creative way all the while keeping the mind open to new concepts. This creates uniqueness............Ron S

 

[tldcowboygear]

New Drawings

Howdy Folks,

I have re-drawn the buckle. The buckle would be made of steel, overlayed with silver. The engraving is on the silver. The buckle would then be cold blued.

As I was drawing, I was looking through Ron's books, reviewing the feedback from the forum, and doing rough sketches to the side of the drawing. I tried to incorporate all suggestions and feedback I received. If I missed any please don't think that I am not taking advice, I just missed it out. I did modify the drawing to do away with the tongue on the buckle in favor of JB's suggestion. I am going to build the buckle and try putting the tang on as he suggested.

As alway, I value the input and critique I receive from this forum. Sometimes I feel like I should send tuition as the help here is almost as good as being in a class.

Thanks,

D.C.

 

[jbmartin]

DC

Glad you made it back!
Fortunately my job makes it easy to be on the web.
Make sure and post a picture of your finished buckle
I have reviewed a world of advice from here on taking pictures and will be posting some finished buckles soon. Any questions on fabrication, let me know..

Later...

JB

 

[tldcowboygear]

Ok, now I am looking for boogers! As I look at what I consider the "ears" of the buckle I am beginning to think that the scrolls on these pieces of silver do not promote the "flow" of the pattern on the big piece of the buckle. The scrolls on the big piece begin at the bottom and flow up along the sides of the focal flower. The scrolls on the ears begin on the outside of the silver and kinda just hang there toward the center of the buckle. Does not have the symmetry/flow/harmony of the design. Am I seeing boogers?

D.C.

 

[KCSteve]

I like the flow and symmetry of this version!

It's surprising how much loosing the tang changes the feel of the design - for the better in this case, I think.

I think the thing on the ears is that the leaves appear to start near the center rather than the point. I can see that they really do start at the point but that leaf isn't part of the 'scroll' of the spine of the leaves. You might try a version where you pull the starting point back to the point of the ear.

 

[Haraga.com]

engraving design

TLD, I have been watching your progress for a while now and I can see that you have or will create your own engraving style. It is very important for you to create your own style and I'm sure everyone is in agreement with that. I am having a hard time understanding what engraving style you are working towards. Tell me or show me the engraving style that you would like to work towards so that more specific help may be directed to you.

 

[tldcowboygear]

Haraga,

Thanks for your encouragement. I really can't say what "style" I am trying to attain. Maybe therein lies the problem. I think that I am still in the trying to decide phase. I know that I am going to continue to build spurs, buckles, and other cowboy items. I want to learn bright cut engraving, single point engraving(gun engraving). My goal is to develop my style and have people pick up a piece and say "D.C. Lance did this". They can probably already do this because my engraving is so unrefined but I want to change that, and I will. Right now, I am trying to improve my design, design flow, etc.

Well, I feel like a politician now, I used a full paragraph and still did not give a very straight answer. I will PM you on this or the other forum later this evening after I have put some thought into the answer.

D.C.

 

[Ron Smith]

D.C., You are correct in your approach right now. Structure is first, style comes later with a good rounded knowledge, however signs of your style will show right from the start. I can show you how to get the foundation that your style will develope from, but that has to do with some simple rules. Lots of people don't know those rules when they first begin to draw, but even now, I still use them as I draw, as most accomplished engravers do.Styles will change throughout your struggle with design. If anyone is worried about style in the beginning, they are likely to spend a lot of wasted time, when the knowledge of structure (what makes something look right according to the laws of grace, not according to ones personality or personal likes which will come out on their own in the long run) will get them on the right track much faster............right on, ride on D.C..................Ron S

 

[Haraga.com]

engraving

Well put Ron.