Lebeau-Cuorally restoration advice?????????

[Ray Cover]

Hey all,

I am doing a restoration job for a very close friend. I don't normally do restorations but hey, fishing buddies are fishing buddies right?


Anyway, The gun is a Lebeau - Courally side lock with hidden pins. The entire gun is very masterfully engraved and has one of the prettiest color case jobs on it that I have ever seen.

Then there are these side locks. Honestly it looks as if the gun were engraved by the master and the side locks were given to the new apprentice for a practice plate. I know the raised gold elephants are ugly because they have been worn flat with use. However, the rest of the work on the side plate is not even in the same class as the rest of the gun. The style does not at all match either. There is just no comparison.

I have been told that it cost around $140,000 to have this gun made with the hidden pin side locks. All the internal parts are also either gold washed or color cased. My friend got a real good deal on the gun because of the shoddy work on the side plates. I am going to attempt to make the side plates worthy to belong on such a gun.

Below is a pic of what I have to work with. First off you can see that the gold elephants were soldered on and one has come off. When I received the gun it was barely hanging on by one corner of the solder joint. One or two shots would have sent it to the ground. This is exactly why I personally frown on the practice of soldering inlay on guns.

I am open to any suggestions you all have as to how to handle this project.

Here is what I am have in mind at this time. As you can see from the photo the plates stand proud of the gun enough that I can mill off the old engraving and still keep the plate a hair proud of the wood.

I think it would be best to mill off the old work and refinish the plate to have a fresh canvas to work on and just totally re-engrave the locks. My friend plans to hunt cape buffalo and lion with this so I am thinking that a nice bulino scene on each side of lions and buffalo would be a good way to go. I can also replace the scroll with something that actually matches the rest of the gun. To my thinking that would certainly step the quality and the look of the gun up several notches from where it stands now.

Any thoughts?

 

[Glenn]

Ray, I'm intrigued with your project because I'm also doing side plates for a double rifle. Have you thought about making new plates instead of milling off the old plates? I'm not suggesting this, but was wondering if you gave this any consideration? Please post progress photos of your work. It would be fun to follow your progress. I'm probably asking for too much, but can you give us some photos of some other engraving on the rifle that you will be matching? Thanks, Glenn

 

[Ray Cover]

I really don't want to get into it that deep. All the parts on the back side of that plate are either gold washed or color cased and I don't want to try to start taking them off and risk scratching them. I also don't want to have to try and re fit all that and the wood to a new side plate. I am afraid making new side plates could easily end up being as much if not more work than redoing the engraving.

I can put a thermo lock cocoon around the parts on the back of the lock to protect the parts and then mill the old stuff of and re engrave without any risk of damage to the gold wash surfaces on the internals. I really think that would be a lot less work than making all new stuff.

Plus, I don't know that I have the skill to fit the parts as well as they fit on this. The craftsmanship on the gun is first rate. I mean its as perfect as human hands can get it. That is why I am so baffled as to why the engraving quality of the side plates doesn't match the quality of the gun itself.

Ray

 

[pilkguns]

Ray, if you have enough proud material to take it away then I would do it with no regrets. I suspect that this is going to be a nightmare project anyway that i would only want to do for a good freind or really wealthy customer. Its hard to work in someone else's style, and get in the mode of often mediocre work that is considered first class by many.

I wonder if the orginial plates got lost and replaced with these since they are proud of the wood that much and the engraving does'nt match. Just be sure that there are not any deep machine cuts on the backside that you are going to cut through, either with the machining or doing an inlay later because it is a shallow spot.

 

[pilkguns]

if milling it down is a problem, going below the wood line, something else you might consider is silver soldering a thin steel plate across the entire side plate, then fitting the plate edges back against the sideplate edges. A high temp solder should hold on it's own, althought to really be sure, you could do some sort of mechanical attachmetn via small screws or pins that would like they belonged there.

 

[Ray Cover]

I wonder if the orginial plates got lost and replaced with these since they are proud of the wood that much and the engraving does'nt match. Just be sure that there are not any deep machine cuts on the backside that you are going to cut through, either with the machining or doing an inlay later because it is a shallow spot.

Ya know Scott, my friend and I both have wondered that. But the internal parts of the lock look original and do match the gun just not the engraving on the outside.

I also have wondered if it was one of those situations where the "customer is always right" and that is the way the customer wanted it not realizing what the finished product was going to look like.

Ray

 

[Tim Wells]

You probably already thought of this but just in case; If there are pins holding parts to the backside of the plate you have to consider the depth they are set into the plate lest you mill the end of an internal pin or thin the plate too much and weaken the area that holds the pin.

Just a hip shot on my part having not see the way it looks on the back. Just a thought.

 

[Ray Cover]

This is a very strange gun.
Here is how the sideplates are done. The sideplate base is about an
1/8" thick and the pins go all the way through that I presume. They
have another layer of what looks to be some kind of stainless (410,
416 or something similar) hard soldered on the face of that base
plate to hide the pins. So in effect it has a veneer layer making
the side plates about 3/16 or more thick. then the gold elephants
were just easy soldered on the surface of that veneer. The veneer
layer is 1/16 inch thick and I think I can take a few thousandths off
of it and get all the engraving down to bare metal and still have
enough thickness on the veneer to keep the pins hidden.

The elephants on this were not even inlaid they were just soldered on
the surface of the false plate. No inlay pocket was even cut.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Ray

If I'm reading this correctley and there is a vineer plate on a backing plate and it's standing proud of the wood.....................sounds like it has already had some sort of repair job done by attatching an outer plate to the original.

That would also explain the mismatched engraving to the original and the Original finish on the inside of the plate.

I wonder that if maybe underneath the vineer plate (if you could prize them apart) you may discover some original engraving

A sherlock Holmes mystery!!!

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Ray Cover]

I thought about that and then I realized I might also find a horror story

I don't want to risk that....not on this level of gun.

Ray

 

[pierre]

hello on the second picture (with the wood ) i can see that the side-lock is more thick than the wood and the action, we never do that in belgium and certenly not at lebeau courally, so it's mean that some one have brase a thin plate on the original side-lock. I have never see or heard that an engraver use a solder technique for the gold inlay, here, we use the wire technique.the lebeau courally have a web site(www.lebeau-courally.com) if you want you can ask them how the gun have been done for the seller, i really doubt that the gun leave lebeau courally whith this kind of engraving.
Sincerly pierre

 

[Ray Cover]

Thank you Pierre,

I will email them some pics and the serial number of the gun and see what info they can give me on it.

Dang! Aint the internet cool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ray

 

[Thierry Duguet]

I really don't want to get into it that deep. All the parts on the back side of that plate are either gold washed or color cased and I don't want to try to start taking them off and risk scratching them. I also don't want to have to try and re fit all that and the wood to a new side plate. I am afraid making new side plates could easily end up being as much if not more work than redoing the engraving.

I can put a thermo lock cocoon around the parts on the back of the lock to protect the parts and then mill the old stuff of and re engrave without any risk of damage to the gold wash surfaces on the internals. I really think that would be a lot less work than making all new stuff.

Plus, I don't know that I have the skill to fit the parts as well as they fit on this. The craftsmanship on the gun is first rate. I mean its as perfect as human hands can get it. That is why I am so baffled as to why the engraving quality of the side plates doesn't match the quality of the gun itself.

Ray

I am not sure if I understand well, Are you planning to remove the old engraving, and re-engrave the plates, without removing the internal parts. If so it is a mistake, the plate may need to be annealed, and it will be difficult to hold the plates if you do not glue them to a piece of wood. It is always a mistake to engrave a gun without removing the parts. Parts can be re-plate and re-case color for just a few dollars what is the point of making you life more difficult than it has to be. As for milling.... the old engraving should be remove by hand as you will have more control over the process, remember this guns was made by hand, if you really have to use machine tool use a surface grinder and make sure that the thickness of the plates is the same from one end to the other, surface grinding will allow you to remove as little metal as possible and will give you a surface almost good enough to start engraving.
One last point, engraving and gunsmithing are two different trades, if you do not feel confident about your gunsmithing abilities ask a GOOD gunsmith to do that part of the work for you, as you did mention it is an expensive firearm, no some Ruger red label, do not treat it as one.

 

[ED DELORGE]

Hello Ray, I agree with Andrew, I will bet that the add-on side plates are glued on or soft soldered on. I would take off the laminets and deal with what ever is under there you may be plesently suprised. Let me know. It is obvious that some one wanted the elephants on the gun and some engraver said here is how I can do it. I bet there is some nice engraving under there. If you need any advise on the gunsmith side give me a call 985-223-0206.



Ed DeLorge

 

[Ray Cover]

Theiry,

I have taken the sideplates off the gun. But what I do not want to do is de-laminate the sideplates

The top laminates are soft. Look a the pictures they are built up in layers. I have no concerns engraving the parts. I do not want to open a can of worms unless I know the can is not full of rattlesnakes.

Until I find out what the real story is from the folks at Lebeau Courally I am not going to risk taking a torch to the plates to take the top laminates off.

I can mill a new surface on them without hurting anything. I cannot say that I can de-laminate the sideplates without hurting anything.

Plus this is not my gun. I am told that to have this gun made cost more than the home I live in. I am not going to risk anything If I do not have the owners OK.

Ray

 

[Marcus Hunt]

For what its worth, I think this may have been a cheap way of making pinless locks. You'll probably find that the extra steel has been brazed onto the original plate and that's why it's standing proud. What a hash job! This sort of DIY gunsmithing ruins fine firearms and you'll probably find the value is considerably less than $140K. A fine, bespoke, double rifle would never be produced with the lock standing proud of the action, likewise soldering gold onto the locks is a no-no if they're going to be case hardened; it can work but the chance is the heat is going to affect the solder some how and hence what we have here. I've noticed you say the plates are soft so the solder shouldn't have been affected and this points again to very poor gunsmithing. Unfortunately, I have seen many fine guns ruined by American 'gunsmiths'. Many of them are great to get an 'old beater' working, or for working on simple American or mass produced guns but they do not have the finess or understanding to work on a fine European firearm. Please, anyone reading this who is considering repairing or refinishing your fine English or European gun/rifle, choose your gunsmith with great care and make sure they have the experience and know how to deal with such a weapon or you will devalue it considerably.

Personally, I'd have no qualms about striking this off and starting again Ray. In fact, annealing and striking off the whole action would be the way to go and along with a Turnbull refinish it could look great. Milling the plates is a bit of a worry though, all the best gunmakers would use a file for maximum control. My only fear would be getting the plates to fit in the wood properly. The wood surrounding the lock plates should be proud, so taking the plate down by the amount necessary to achieve this would more than likely mean the original pin holes will break through and this means no pinless locks. Still, I think pin holes would be preferable to having the lockplates proud of the wood.

 

[Weldon47]

Ray,

I concur with Marcus on how best to approach the task at hand. Though his assessment of American gunsmiths stings like salt in a wound, he is regrettably, correct in his assessment of "average" gunsmithing skills in our great country. Fortunately, there are those who are capable of performing at a level that is well above average. To paraphrase Marcus "choose wisely"!!

Ray, like you, the only way I would do something of this nature is that it be for a very close friend: I would not accept a commission with so many unknowns & potential pitfalls.

My two cents worth,

Weldon

 

[Ray Cover]

Thanks for the advise guys. Your right Weldon the ONLY reason I am doing this is because this couple are good friends of ours.

I have emailed Lebeau with pics, serial number and the like. Hopefully, I will get some information from them on the history and what might be on the original surface of the side plates.

Ray

 

[Dave London]

Salt shmalt I am getting a little tired or the cheap shots from across the pond. No where in this thread is it mentioned that the work was done in the USA. Of course only in the USA are there hacks of all professions. Some people should remember that they would be speaking german if not for the USA. And all of the cheap junk american made personal firearms that were sent to England by the citizens of the USA for free and then destroyed after the war. Am I insulted in a word YES
Sorry Sam but this @#%$# is really got me hot under my redneck collor.Dave

 

[BrianPowley]

Ray, Give Barry Lee Hands a shout..........He's pretty good in the solution department.
Brian