silverchip
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
I know that FEGA has a show of work every year and with all the categories of work could anyone enlighten me as to what are the criteria that is used to determine the outcome?
Question: Judging work
- Thread starter silverchip
- Start date
Marrinan
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
you are familiar the old boys or downtown leaders direct the downtona
Barry Lee Hands
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Silverchip, there are several different awards if thats what you mean. As I recall Fega has The " Uniqueness" award, which can be about any engraved item, best engraved handgun, best engraved shotgun, best engraved rifle, metal on metal inlay,and Engravers Choice, which has two second place engravers choice award of merits.
Basically if you have a table at the show, you can enter your piece by taking it up to the table where they are judged, and fill out a small form.
Then the members file by, and vote.
It is pretty casual and wide open.
You can read about it here:
http://www.fega.com/about/Awards.asp
If Tim Wells reads this, he is in charge of the awards, and can give you a more exact description perhaps.
We also have the "Master Engraver" category of membership, and you can read about it here:
http://www.fega.com/MemberRegistry/Apply2.asp
Basically if you have a table at the show, you can enter your piece by taking it up to the table where they are judged, and fill out a small form.
Then the members file by, and vote.
It is pretty casual and wide open.
You can read about it here:
http://www.fega.com/about/Awards.asp
If Tim Wells reads this, he is in charge of the awards, and can give you a more exact description perhaps.
We also have the "Master Engraver" category of membership, and you can read about it here:
http://www.fega.com/MemberRegistry/Apply2.asp
Last edited:
Andrew Biggs
Moderator
Hi Silverchip
To expand on what Barry has said..........anyone with a table or who is a FEGA Master Engraver at the show gets to vote on the various awards. If they are present when the judging is going on. This gives a really good cross section of people to vote and there is normally quite a few. This has been the case for the last few years (not sure how many) because it was seen as a fairer way of doing it.
There are a couple of exceptions. The Engravers Choice awards are voted on by any FEGA member at the show.
The Artistic Uniqueness award, which is sponsored by GRS, is usually judged by the GRS people manning the GRS table present at the show. (I think I have that one right and Tim will correct me if I'm wrong.)
The awards are really something and the entries are pretty stunning. In my mind they all deserve first place but as the saying goes, there can only be one winner. Just in my short time the bar seems to get raised every year.
The FEGA Master Engravers is different again. That is judged by only the FEGA Master Engravers in the room of which there are many. I'm in charge of that but only on an administration level. I don't have a vote and only organise it. It's not really an award but rather something done to gain the certification of FEGA Master Engraver.
All the other awards like Presidents, Editors and whatever else are generally handled by that person on the BOD whose job it is. Barry obviously the Presidents award and myself for the Editors.
Cheers
Andrew
To expand on what Barry has said..........anyone with a table or who is a FEGA Master Engraver at the show gets to vote on the various awards. If they are present when the judging is going on. This gives a really good cross section of people to vote and there is normally quite a few. This has been the case for the last few years (not sure how many) because it was seen as a fairer way of doing it.
There are a couple of exceptions. The Engravers Choice awards are voted on by any FEGA member at the show.
The Artistic Uniqueness award, which is sponsored by GRS, is usually judged by the GRS people manning the GRS table present at the show. (I think I have that one right and Tim will correct me if I'm wrong.)
The awards are really something and the entries are pretty stunning. In my mind they all deserve first place but as the saying goes, there can only be one winner. Just in my short time the bar seems to get raised every year.
The FEGA Master Engravers is different again. That is judged by only the FEGA Master Engravers in the room of which there are many. I'm in charge of that but only on an administration level. I don't have a vote and only organise it. It's not really an award but rather something done to gain the certification of FEGA Master Engraver.
All the other awards like Presidents, Editors and whatever else are generally handled by that person on the BOD whose job it is. Barry obviously the Presidents award and myself for the Editors.
Cheers
Andrew
Barry Lee Hands
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Andrew summed it up all rather well, and Silverchip, if you or any of your friends are interested in participating, we hope to see you in Reno!
Go to www.fega.com for info.
Go to www.fega.com for info.
silverchip
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
So all work that is in the running for awards goes through a jury and then is judged by various committees but is there a standard for judging the work so it is fair and everybody agrees other than popular vote that the given winner is correct and up to a standard?the reason I am asking about this is because I am developing a standard of criteria to be used for this purpose.You must have an objective standard to go by,don't you or is it just subjective to the head of each category?
FANCYGUN
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Silverchip....the criteria is different for each catagory of cometition. That is why there are different ones. As far as the overall engravers choice awards...that is subject to the overall opinions and criteria of all the FEGA members that do vote and the numbers are tallied to get the winner. There is no GOOD OL BOY system at work here and if people tell you that it's because their egos far surpass their abilities.
Chris......no more salami sandwiches for you...
I do believe the awards record holder over the years is either Ron Smith or Sam Welch AKA TOS. I don't think anyone would questions their creative talents
Chris......no more salami sandwiches for you...
I do believe the awards record holder over the years is either Ron Smith or Sam Welch AKA TOS. I don't think anyone would questions their creative talents
silverchip
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
I guess that is what I'm after- a fair and objective criteria that would be seen as fair by all and give a concise reason that a particular piece should be judged as top of the class.Not every masterpiece gets into a show because of timing or it's last years piece ect but for new work and new artist that are looking for critique and a sense of value for their work as well as getting exposed to the world.A lot of artist get stuck in their studio or workshop and haven't a clue as to the quality of their art or what they need to improve on.
FANCYGUN
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
A lot of artist get stuck in their studio or workshop and haven't a clue as to the quality of their art or what they need to improve on.
Silverchip.you hit the nail on the head here. That is why it is so important to attend the annual FEGA meeting so you can interact with other artist/craftsmen and get a sense of where you are at and where the engravers art is at. The informal discussions are far more enlightening than any contest. This is how you learn
Silverchip.you hit the nail on the head here. That is why it is so important to attend the annual FEGA meeting so you can interact with other artist/craftsmen and get a sense of where you are at and where the engravers art is at. The informal discussions are far more enlightening than any contest. This is how you learn
BrianPowley
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
As a FEGA member, I have displayed off and on over the last 20 years AND entered several of the competitions.
Not one time did I ever feel that the game was rigged or the judging unfair.
Not one time did I ever feel that the game was rigged or the judging unfair.
silverchip
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
I am not saying that at all. I just want to have a system in place that is transparent and fair for our purposes.That is why I am asking you guys to have some input,because I have a lot of respect for your art and your organization does this to promote good work and bring on new people to the scene.
Andrew Biggs
Moderator
Hi silverchip
I'll try and give you a bit more concise answers.
For the FEGA Master Engravers there are some very clear guidelines that have to be adhered to, and looked for when judging. But that is not an award. The work is presented anonymously so in theory it is only myself and the applicant that know whose work it is. The master engravers judging the work look for things like design, scroll work, inlays, lettering etc etc. Barry gave you the link to that and it's well worth reading and may also help you out with what you are trying to do............have a read and see what you think. They could easily be adapted to other styles/canvases of engraving
For the actual awards there are no guidelines. The level and standard of the work is extremely high so any guidelines simply become ineffectual because the work is of such a high standard both technically and design wise. I guess some of it is subjective and simply what appeals to you the most. That can't be helped. However I think most people look beyond that and look for more.
With all the discussions I have had about this over the years the biggest problem is which one do you choose because all the entries are just so damn good. Pretty much everyone agrees on that.
Generally between the table holders and FEGA Master Engravers in the room at the time of judging you will have about 30 to 50 people voting in each category. And naturally all of them have different ideas about what constitutes a winning gun. So there is an excellent cross section of people voting.
Cheers
Andrew
I'll try and give you a bit more concise answers.
For the FEGA Master Engravers there are some very clear guidelines that have to be adhered to, and looked for when judging. But that is not an award. The work is presented anonymously so in theory it is only myself and the applicant that know whose work it is. The master engravers judging the work look for things like design, scroll work, inlays, lettering etc etc. Barry gave you the link to that and it's well worth reading and may also help you out with what you are trying to do............have a read and see what you think. They could easily be adapted to other styles/canvases of engraving
For the actual awards there are no guidelines. The level and standard of the work is extremely high so any guidelines simply become ineffectual because the work is of such a high standard both technically and design wise. I guess some of it is subjective and simply what appeals to you the most. That can't be helped. However I think most people look beyond that and look for more.
With all the discussions I have had about this over the years the biggest problem is which one do you choose because all the entries are just so damn good. Pretty much everyone agrees on that.
Generally between the table holders and FEGA Master Engravers in the room at the time of judging you will have about 30 to 50 people voting in each category. And naturally all of them have different ideas about what constitutes a winning gun. So there is an excellent cross section of people voting.
Cheers
Andrew
Roger Bleile
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Dave,
I'm trying to get an idea of your objective. Are you looking to FEGA for an idea to use for another organization such as Art of the Cowboy Makers or for judging your own students work, or are you just trying to understand how the FEGA awards work because you would like to enter something into the FEGA awards judging.
Cheers,
Roger
I'm trying to get an idea of your objective. Are you looking to FEGA for an idea to use for another organization such as Art of the Cowboy Makers or for judging your own students work, or are you just trying to understand how the FEGA awards work because you would like to enter something into the FEGA awards judging.
Cheers,
Roger
silverchip
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
O.K. -Andrew, I did go and read over the link and it seems that there are some good points there.
Rodger, Yes that would be the general Idea. Why not ask you about judging work and giving critiques,you do give the entries a critique too,don't you?Many shows and contest that I know about are not really well juried or judged.If I put something in a show and it gets third place,I would like to know why and hope to learn from the experience.Maybe it would deserve better and the person doing the judging is a guest or celebrity judge and needs a few guidelines to help them out ect. -not that I agree with that scenario,but it has happened.I might be a judge and have to give a reason why someone scored better that another person and with perhaps a point system,it would be clearer to show why.
Rodger, Yes that would be the general Idea. Why not ask you about judging work and giving critiques,you do give the entries a critique too,don't you?Many shows and contest that I know about are not really well juried or judged.If I put something in a show and it gets third place,I would like to know why and hope to learn from the experience.Maybe it would deserve better and the person doing the judging is a guest or celebrity judge and needs a few guidelines to help them out ect. -not that I agree with that scenario,but it has happened.I might be a judge and have to give a reason why someone scored better that another person and with perhaps a point system,it would be clearer to show why.
Andrew Biggs
Moderator
Hi Silverchip
That's a tough one. The people that enter these awards tend to be experienced engravers whose skill, technique and designs are top of the line. So how would you go about critiquing their work?? You also have artistic expression so although the canvas may be a handgun category, there are several different types and they will all be engraved totally different with unique styles. Some will have no gold others will be festooned with inlays and scene work.
Imagine if you lined up 4 double guns. Coggan, Lovenberg, Fracassi and Pedersoli..............and you only could choose one winner. You know their technique and designs are the best there is so what would the criteria be for judging and how would you critique the other three.??? The answer is you simply can't or would be foolish to do so. It would be down to what most appeals to you personally.
However, if you had beginners or novices entering the competition then maybe there is room for that. But with the level of skill and talent at the FEGA awards it would be a brave person that started critiquing the entries
Cheers
Andrew
That's a tough one. The people that enter these awards tend to be experienced engravers whose skill, technique and designs are top of the line. So how would you go about critiquing their work?? You also have artistic expression so although the canvas may be a handgun category, there are several different types and they will all be engraved totally different with unique styles. Some will have no gold others will be festooned with inlays and scene work.
Imagine if you lined up 4 double guns. Coggan, Lovenberg, Fracassi and Pedersoli..............and you only could choose one winner. You know their technique and designs are the best there is so what would the criteria be for judging and how would you critique the other three.??? The answer is you simply can't or would be foolish to do so.
It would be down to what most appeals to you personally.However, if you had beginners or novices entering the competition then maybe there is room for that. But with the level of skill and talent at the FEGA awards it would be a brave person that started critiquing the entries
Cheers
Andrew
Haraga.com
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Looks to me like there is no set criteria. Eg. 10% for finish, 10% for background etc etc. You are a creative guy Dave. Come up with some guidelines and let it evolve.
Andrew Biggs
Moderator
Yes, have a go at it and see what you come up with. You are more than welcome to take ideas off the FEGA Master Engraver specs if that is of any help to you.
Just keep in mind that the awards are a competition, not a learning experience and critiquing is not part of a competition. You also have to consider the number of judges. In our case it's can be between 30 to 50 people. The categories are the canvas only like handgun, rifle etc. etc...........not what is on them. That is up to the engraver. So each category will have several different methods, styles and techniques from inlays to chasing and everything in-between.
Also, if you do the 10% for finish, 10% for background thing, then how do you compensate for a stipple vs beading background or a selective grey vs bluing finish vs colour case hardening. Or a carved/chased engraving vs single point cutting...............and they are all expertly done.
So it's not an easy thing. The more rules you make the harder and more complicated it becomes and then that gives people more opportunity to endlessly argue about rules. Then you need rules to clarify the rules and it can end up a complete mess..............sometimes keeping things simple and relying on peoples good judgment is the best way to go
Cheers
Andrew
Just keep in mind that the awards are a competition, not a learning experience and critiquing is not part of a competition. You also have to consider the number of judges. In our case it's can be between 30 to 50 people. The categories are the canvas only like handgun, rifle etc. etc...........not what is on them. That is up to the engraver. So each category will have several different methods, styles and techniques from inlays to chasing and everything in-between.
Also, if you do the 10% for finish, 10% for background thing, then how do you compensate for a stipple vs beading background or a selective grey vs bluing finish vs colour case hardening. Or a carved/chased engraving vs single point cutting...............and they are all expertly done.
So it's not an easy thing. The more rules you make the harder and more complicated it becomes and then that gives people more opportunity to endlessly argue about rules. Then you need rules to clarify the rules and it can end up a complete mess..............sometimes keeping things simple and relying on peoples good judgment is the best way to go
Cheers
Andrew
Barry Lee Hands
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
The best reason to participate( besides the fun) is that your participation validates the winner, and if you do participate, it may be you who are the winner one day!
tsterling
Elite Cafe Member
Here's a link to the judging rules for the International Woodcarvers Congress competition. Not engraving, but perhaps useful: http://www.awcltd.org/pdf/RulesOfCompetition.pdf
silverchip
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Thanks, I'll give it a look.
Andrew, of coarse the engravers that you mentioned are the cream of the crop,and that is what we are trying to present as great work and inspiration to all.Given the chance to judge their work side by side would have to come down to preference of style and subject matter.Thanks for you input guys,I know it's a tough question to ask and answer, but that is why I am asking you I guess.
Dave
Andrew, of coarse the engravers that you mentioned are the cream of the crop,and that is what we are trying to present as great work and inspiration to all.Given the chance to judge their work side by side would have to come down to preference of style and subject matter.Thanks for you input guys,I know it's a tough question to ask and answer, but that is why I am asking you I guess.
Dave
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