Inlaying Rose Gold

[mitch]

hi all-

it's been a very long time since i did any colored gold inlay work and the memories have faded to the point that i may be sweet-talked into once again descending into the bowels of HE11 to do mortal battle with that evil, God-forsaken, forged in satan's furnace, instantaneously-work-hardening, mother*****, %&*$#&!!!!!!.... uh, sorry about that, where was i?

as i was saying, it's been awhile and i could use some recommendations on a good source for nice rosy rose gold, preferably in an alloy that doesn't alchemically morph into carbide the moment a tool is waved in its general vicinity. any other suggestions for working with the vile stuff would be most appreciated. (btw- i already know the best technique is to talk the client out of it and i haven't given up on that plan just yet.)

thanks!

 

[pilkguns]

Mitch, silver solder some copper sheet to the back of it, then cut it out like you need, and use the copper to set into your tooth. Thats the way I do rose gold, i'ts terrible to work with otherwise, and I have experimented with everything from 2kt to 22kt, and every annealing method you could think of, but the copper plate on the back is the trick.

 

[jerrywh]

I prefer to back it with pure silver. To each his own.

 

[John B.]

Jerrywh, me too on the pure .999 silver backing.
Or I even use about .005-.006 inch thick 24KT gold for very small items such as a rose blossom where it is difficult to get a whole lot of teeth in the small area involved.
Especially if it is a non-cavity (overlay) piece where the backing might show.
I always try to avoid copper on anything that is going in the bluing tanks also.
Best.

 

[Joe Mason]

How do you do rose gold wire inlay?

Joe

 

[jerrywh]

Never tried it but I have inlaid iron. I think rose gold is harder than iron. I would try a silver copper alloy for the color instead of gold. Rose gold oxidizes anyway, just the same. You might try annealing it in a charcoal pack. at 1500° Rio Grande or Hoover and strong have directions for annealing rose gold. Or call their tech dept.

 

[mitch]

I've inlaid mild steels and, yeah, colored golds are definitely harder. It makes me laugh when I see any mention of how hard platinum is, even to the point of selling special extra-hard files to work it (LOL!?). You could make files for 90/10 Pt out of 18K white gold- now that **** is ****ing HARD!

It seems there are 2 schools of thought (3 if you count faking it with baser metals- i don't really care, but this client will NOT go for that): Solder on a softer metal backing or treat it like inlaying steel/iron- which to me means relieving the back of the inlay and leaving a lip or flange to upset into the undercut. Both are a time-sucking PITA... Seeing as these would be flush inlays, the soldering trick doesn't leave much thickness to work with. The steel inlay method, for me anyway, is tried & true, but also a tried & true source of tedious brain damage. A Hobson's choice.

Any sources for the vile stuff?

Thanks!

 

[John B.]

Joe, good to see you back and healthier.
Inlaying Rose linework.
I just make sure to have the right size ditch dug, a good undercut both sides, teeth in the bottom as well if wide enough. Solid support and backing.
Pray to the God's, told my tongue just right, set the brass punch and give it a good whack with a hammer.
Pray that it seats the first hit or pull it out and start over if the God's didn't smile on me.

But seriously, I'd be scared to try Rose wire line inlay on some of the delicate folding knives you work on. It's a pretty brutal thing.
And forget making constructed wire formed inlays with Rose.
Just my thinking.
Best regards.

 

[Phil Coggan]

Rose gold no matter what Kt. or amount of annealing will not stick to burrs.
The rose inlay below is about 35mm. long and 0.8mm. thick, it is held in by the undercuts which have to be very well done if you want the gold to stay put after hardening, but not only that, when a gun is fired it produces jar which can dis-lodge badly inlayed gold.

Phil

 

[John B.]

Phil, thank you. This is another beautiful piece of art, as all your work is.
A couple of questions please.
Approximately how deep is the cavity under the .8 mm (.032”) rose gold tree branch?
If you are relying on undercuts only and not burrs how are you holding the rose where it butts up to the cartouche and the leopard?
As there is no visible line of steel is it just that the rose cavity is deeper in that area than the cavity or edge burrs holding the cartouche and leopard where the colors meet?
A comment and question.
I notice that you that you use the orb eyes on your inlays as seen in classic Greek and Roman sculpture.
Is this by request or your personal preference?

Best regards.

 

[jerrywh]

Phil is one of the aces who knows. Rose gold sure won't take teeth that's for sure. The cavities have to be deeper. The softer gold can be set into the rose gold just as it would be with steel. I don't see how you can set that rose gold with anything less than a 5lb. hammer. I have a piece of rose gold that would make a good ball bearing. It's only about 10% copper.

 

[Phil Coggan]

Phil, thank you. This is another beautiful piece of art, as all your work is.
A couple of questions please.
Approximately how deep is the cavity under the .8 mm (.032”) rose gold tree branch?
If you are relying on undercuts only and not burrs how are you holding the rose where it butts up to the cartouche and the leopard?
As there is no visible line of steel is it just that the rose cavity is deeper in that area than the cavity or edge burrs holding the cartouche and leopard where the colors meet?
A comment and question.
I notice that you that you use the orb eyes on your inlays as seen in classic Greek and Roman sculpture.
Is this by request or your personal preference?

Best regards.

The cavity is about 0.3mm and the undercut run right around it. the yellow gold rides over this.
A big hammer is ok for setting a small leaf etc but for something this size it's just not practical, there's too much bounce and it's also complicated by the curved surface, after hitting the one side in is possible but it work hardens even more and becomes like a spring so when the other side is hit the first side will pop out......this is a lot of fun NOT! and will bring on some choice words.

The orbs are best done this way, I have experimented with dots and cuts etc but it just does'nt look right.

Phil

 

[John B.]

Thank you for your answers, Phil.
I know exactly what you mean about a big hammer not being the answer for large rose gold sheet inlays.
They take on a spring temper if you even give them a hard look it seems.
That's why I like to laminate them to a 24KT soft gold backing.
Single line rose gold borders work about like iron wire inlays for me and I do give both of them a good whack into a well undercut channel.
Thanks for your thoughts on the raised inlay's eyes.
Do you feel the same about flush inlay and the eyes?

Best.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

I don't even want to try this now, and I hope I find another solution.
The one I can think of now is to weld the gold using my Lampert PUK3.
Drillibg holes in the rose gold plate, weld it together with the steel among, and then fill the holes with the rose gold alloy.
Perhaps sounds stupid but I think it works perfect as I know a lot about welding different alloys.

just the contribution of a goldsmith/engraver, arnaud

 

[mitch]

Arnaud,-i don't think it sounds stupid at all. in fact, high-tech micro-welding may well be the ideal solution for inlaying difficult metals. if i had access to a "Lampert PUK3" or laser welder, i'd definitely consider that technique- i'd certainly experiment with it.

another complicating factor on the proposed project- that a few of you have touched on- is that we're talking about a fairly delicate small interframe folder with some rare pearl inlays. i REALLY don't want to be whacking away on this piece any more vigorously than absolutely necessary. i think i'm back to plan A: telling its owner this is not a good idea.

 

[Phil Coggan]

Thanks for your thoughts on the raised inlay's eyes.
Do you feel the same about flush inlay and the eyes?

Flush inlay eyes are a different ballgame, leaving them unengraved makes for a "Hammer Hose of Horrors" zombie look.

Phil

 

[John B.]

I agree, thanks Phil.

 

[Kevin P.]

"any mention of how hard platinum is, even to the point of selling special extra-hard files to work it"

Mitch, I think the idea of separate files for platinum, at least in the jewelry field, is to avoid contamination. If when soldering it gets contaminated it's useless; it has to be sent to the refiner.
Kevin P.

 

[mitch]

Hi Kevin-

I'm well aware cross-contamination is a legitimate concern, but this is copied directly from RioGrande.com:
_______________________
Valtitan™ files provide better performance on hard metals and hard-to-file; surfaces such as platinum and titanium.
_______________________

Titanium? ok. Platinum? yeah, right...

 

[jerrywh]

I never had any problem filing titanium with regular files.