Question: I need help with identification

[lookingforyou]

After my Fathers passing in 2010 I found this knife among his belongings. Last month I was looking at it and something caught my eye that was very tiny, so I got my eye loupe and could not believe what I found. Under magnification I found the entire knife was engraved and appears to be several layers thick. I bought a digital microscope with 200x power and 5mp camera. I was a highly skilled machinist for 35 years and to my best guess I can get down to .001 of an inch and am still uncovering new images. I am not sure what I have or where my father may have acquired it, but I assume it is rare. I read a little and assume this is microscopy engraving. I hope someone can tell me about it. If you need more pictures, or want my email or phone let me know.
Thanks, Mike

 

[mrthe]

Sorry i can't see any type pf engraving just wearing marks

 

[Artemiss]

Me too... just wear and rust marks!

 

[simone-cervellati]

that is a very nice old knife, it bears the marks of old age, his character.. but Alas, I think that's about it

Very nice piece though

Simone

 

[Marrinan]

The style of the knife is unusual to begin with. Shape might indicate flint lock days. If the last picture is a cut in the blade steel with unusual rust or corrosion in the bottom, I would begin with one or tow of the knife collecting books focusing on the colonial period. Obviously stock removal blade but the full shape is something a knife historian might recognize. A mystery to me.

 

[Ron Spokovich]

You'd need those photos perked up quite a bit, perhaps with a measuring reticle imposed over the snapshots to give us an idea of the relative size. I have trouble with identifying the areas as actual engravings. The closest thing I've seen to miniature work you might want to look toward is an ivory crucifix, to which was affixed a left & right hinged set of miniature doors, which opened up to reveal a miniature lense through which could be seen an engraved image of Christ. It would've been impossible to see with the naked eye. I held and examined the object, which we believe was made in Italy, maker unknown. Works like this aren't common, but they're floating around out there somewhere. You need some focus work, but I have difficulty in seeing actual engraving.

 

[lookingforyou]

Yea the pictures are not good, but I can assure you the images are not wear marks. I have 2 more pictures that are better but still not crystal clear. The scale is a precision scale the graduations are .025" each line. I originally thought this squiggly line was a makers mark. It actually is a whip with an engraved man swinging it, the 2nd pic is at 200x on the end of the whip. There are faces all the way down the entire length of the whip, top and bottom two rows of faces. Down at the bottom of the engraving (groove) there are more pictures all the way down inside that little groove, that squiggly line. This thing is incredible how much detail is on this. You could look at one square millimeter for hours and literally see hundreds of images there are just thousands and thousands of images on this knife

 

[lookingforyou]

Hi thanks for your knowledge, I am beginning to think it is older than flint lock days. I have found many images of Jesus, God, and the Devil. It's very strange that if I focus at 20x power then zoom in more I will completely lose the picture to the point it's a white cloud, but keep zooming in and all of a sudden a completely different scene appears. Men with swords on horses, pyramids, hundreds of people. It's just crazy and that is in a couple square mm. The entire knife including the brass is engraved.

The style of the knife is unusual to begin with. Shape might indicate flint lock days. If the last picture is a cut in the blade steel with unusual rust or corrosion in the bottom, I would begin with one or tow of the knife collecting books focusing on the colonial period. Obviously stock removal blade but the full shape is something a knife historian might recognize. A mystery to me.

 

[Doc Mark]

I'm not trying to be offensive, but these "images" come under the same heading as the often reported "Madonnas" on the grilled cheese sandwich we've all seen. The mind "sees" or interprets what it sees, in a manner which can alter reality. I'm sorry but I cannot find any evidence of intentional alteration of the surfaces shown by an artist's hand.

 

[lookingforyou]

No offense taken and I won't tell you that your seeing things when you tell me the world is round, because when I look out my window it sure looks flat to me. I will keep an open mind and ask to see some pictures that are more clear before I make up my mind that your seeing things. I will get better pictures on here, hopefully tomorrow. I have showed this knife to at least a dozen people, everyone of them has said WOW, how did anyone do that? That is why I came to the Café. It's getting late and my grilled cheese is getting cold.

 

[lookingforyou]

This is a better picture.

Am I right to assume that this design has been engraved? Anyone have any idea who may have engraved this knife?

 

[Marrinan]

That sure looks like a snake to me to. If it is and the other marks are also cut or etched you may have a real find on your hands. You might try duplicating what your seeing section by section with pencil at 100 times the size then look through your images with critical eye. There are pure d wonderments out there yet to be discovered. I would try to identify the time period the knife was produced in then work from there toward other similar pieces. could be Japanese or someplace else in the far or middle east. Might try family members who have slight memories of the knife. An arms museum might provide insight. best of luck.Fred

 

[simone-cervellati]

these are my 2 cents, and I don't want to upset anybody..

If I get this right, you are saying that inside the line we see up here, there are other designs engraved, I do not think you could engrave a design inside of a .25 mm thick line.. we held a contest a while back about who could engrave the smallest script lettering and Sam and Brian Hochstrat surprised us all with a staggering .2 mm or a bit less..
on a flat surface,
AND
with gravers sharpened with high tech devices,
AND
with high tech surgical microscopes,
BY
some of the best engravers alive today

the lettering is hard to see with regular magnification and completely unintelligible with just the naked eye

Here is the thread so you can have a look at it..
http://www.engraverscafe.com/showthread.php?10872-Steel-cage-microscript-lettering-challenge

Figurative engraving is way more complicated than lettering.. even if we assume that kind of work was done on it the rusting and wear I see would be enough to make it disappear.

Simone

P.S. engraving is engraving, enjoy it without trying to find the needle in the haystack
P.P.S. or you might be pulling our leg in wich case we all just fell for it

 

[lookingforyou]

Need help

Thanks Fred. I have no relatives to ask, but I know My dad was in Japan during the occupation and also fought in Korea. I am thinking it is Egyptian because what appears to be the pyramids and the type of clothing and spelling that may be latin. There is also script writing and random numbers as well as symbols or hieroglyphics all over it. So far I have found the number 1714 in two places, but there are so many number on it that could also be dates. I have viewed it at 200x with the microscope then put it on my 31" monitor and zoomed it all the way until I can go no further and am still finding objects that are a fraction of a line on that scale, I figure down around .001", I have a stronger microscope coming.

 

[Marrinan]

Simone, Take a look at Sam's pin heads. There are several threads deal with micro craving and engraving-many with the lords prayer on pinheads with no magnification at all some on grains of rice, snow white and all seven dwarfs in the eye of a needle, lots of stuff like that- fred

 

[dlilazteca]

Get better magnification! I have to see it! Look for a local jeweler that might be able to help you you can place the phone camera on the eye piece and take a picture through there

 

[lookingforyou]

Simone, William Webb 1815-1888 was able to write the entire Bible and Testament on one square inch of glass with room left for more than three-quarters of a million letters. His engravings on glass have been measured to 40 millionths of and inch, so when I say that I can see images that are .001 of an inch on my knife would be like comparing a school bus to a flea. Google William Webb.

 

[Billzach]

I would really like to read up on Simone, William Webb writing the entire Bible on one square inch of glass, but can,t find it, can you post a site for it.

 

[Brian Marshall]

Pull Simone's name out of the search - he's the one the statement was directed at...


This is what was meant - William Webb - microscopist.net


Maybe the precursor to a Cronite pantograph?



B.

 

[Billzach]

Found it, thanks Brian.