I need a new microscope

[Scratchmo]

I know this subject has been talked at length. I found some old posts which were helpful, but have some new questions. I am exploring the world of micro-miniature carving. My latest nickel had a taste of this, (see post "hobo with a dobro") which was VERY well received. I have a Meiji scope which I removed the .5 reduction lens and worked the details under the full 45X power. I could tell this was not good for my eyes and I am hoping to go to about 60-70X with some better optics. I wonder if there is somewhere I could go to try out different scopes? Any suggestions?

 

[Brian Marshall]

Tried to send you a PM. Says your box is full? Maybe email me at jewelryartschool@aol.com?


Brian

 

[Sam]

If you could try a Zeiss you might think you've died and gone to heaven. Remember that in addition to removing the reduction lens, replacing the 10x eyepieces with 20x will give you quite a boost. I don't have 20Xs in my scopes, but if you ever want to test one in standard configuration come on down.

 

[monk]

scratchmo : if you do that, you better lay off coffee and caffeine !

 

[Scratchmo]

No kiddin Monk! Willard Wigan says he slows his heart rate down and makes his cuts between heart-beats because the pulse in his fingers will throw the tool off that much at that level of "little".

Sam, I found a used Zeiss Stemi online with the cool light for just over $4000. He called me back and talked me out of it saying it wasn't a "true" stereo and therefore not well suited for sculpting. The Zeiss OPMI that I'm also considering is probably a better scope for engraving.

The man from the used scope place almost has me talked me into an Olympus with a 60X power and the cool halogen fiber optic light. He also pointed out the stand and bench need be be super sturdy since every tiny vibration will shake the image too much, so my idea of "moving up" to the acrobat stand was not the best idea for high magnification. Anyway, the whole set-up was about $2200. He has eight of them. I don't hear these talked about in the engraving world, but he seemed to have a great knowledge of different scopes and their different applications. He said they had great clarity, gathered light well, decent field of vision at high magnification etc. Has anyone used these for engraving? These came from a high-tech assembly line that was not in business very long, so they are claimed to be like new.

 

[Sam]

I used Olympus SZIII scopes for many years and they're fine. I believe the Meiji is brighter though. At least brighter than the SZIIIs I had.

You should be able to get a Zeiss Stemi 2000 series for around $2k or so, maybe less. I think Jerry Seymour said he's thinking about selling one. I bought a Stemi 2000CS (trinocular) from Jerry and am quite happy with it. I also have a Stemi 2000 binocular which I got on eBay years ago, and Andy Shinosky just got one on eBay recently. I believe the OPMI series is probably better and brighter, but has a turret instead of infinite zoom. Me, I like my zoom, but the OPMI guys seem quite satisfied with those scopes.

Please forgive me Ron...I mean, you're the man, but are you sure you need that much power? With my standard setup scopes I can engrave lettering so small it can barely be seen with the naked eye and I can't imagine needing more power than I already have. Brightness and sharpness are worth spending money for IMHO, but when it comes to power I have all I need. Then again, I'm not doing micro-miniature carving. How micro are you talking about? Your last nickel was a freakin' killer!

 

[Andy]

I agree with Sam.
There is a Stemi 2000 on ebay right now with a buy it now price of $2200. The opening bid is $2000. This was just relisted. It didn't sell the first time. Meaning....you could probably get it for $2000. Same seller I bought mine from. He said he had a number of them. Stemi 2000

 

[Scratchmo]

Thanks a lot for your input Sam, I don't know if I do need that much power but I want to go as small as my scope will allow me I suppose, but depth of field is really important for 3d stuff. The Meiji was very short depth of field at 45X. The guy at the scope place made kind of a big deal about the way the stemi was set up that it was better suited for 2 dimensional stuff. He said it wasn't a true stereo because of this set up. He explained with some tech talk that I can't remember verbatum. But I trust Sam's experience over some salesman. Now I wish I could try one out. I had an offer on a Zeiss OPMI but didn't get a price. I wonder what if any difference that would be for an engraving set up. Now I'm really confused.

 

[Marrinan]

What about try before you buy or a return if not as stated? Fred

 

[Sam]

Depth of field is going to be razor thin on anything at high magnification. I've seen online and iPhone depth of field calculators for camera lenses. Not sure if there's one for microscopes, but I've not heard of any scope having better depth of field than another except electron microscopes. Keep in mind that to create greater depth of field, the aperture must be closed which makes the view darker. Scopes don't have apertures like camera lenses so essentially they're wide open to allow most light to pass for a brighter view, and consequently less depth of field.

When a scope has two separate eye paths (binocular) then it is indeed stereo. If you have a camera attached to a trinocular scope and then engrave while watching the tv monitor, then you're working in 2D. If you use the eyepieces, then it's 3D.

I'm definitely not a microscope expert by any means, but what that sales guy told you really makes me wonder if he knows what he's talking about.

 

[Scratchmo]

It wasn't so much depth of field as the 3-D viewing he was talking about. Since there basically is NO depth of field at that level, the next best things would be clarity and brightness. Sam and everyone else who owns a Zeiss seems to swear by them. The guy is probably just pushing the Olympus because he's got eight of them in stock. I like the Zeiss Stemi on Ebay that Andy found. Is that one like yours Sam? At 2 grand, that would burn up all my available cash, but probably a great investment. In the world of micro-miniatures, the smaller you go, the more money you can make. I am attempting to combine hobo nickel carving with the world of the micro-miniature. If it doesn't drive me insane in the process.

 

[Scratchmo]

Sam, I think you're right. I may have just gotten excited and a little too ambitious. (I tend to get that way with new ideas) I was playing around with some pretty tiny stuff today and can honestly say I really don't want to try to go any smaller. I don't want to do "eye of the needle" stuff, but rather work very small details into larger works. If I ever start talking like I want to go "there", just shoot me... promise! I still want a better scope with a better light because I'm really most concerned about eye strain. I also may have to adjust my work patterns and do this stuff in small spurts.

 

[monk]

scratchmo : there are a few really "upscale" scopes available today. they're not 3-d, but are manufactured with a n entirely new technology. they utilize, amongst other features, a rather sizeable viewing screen. no more pesky eyepieces. not for the newbie, the one i saw began at around 9 to 10 grand without the whistles & bells onboard. fully loaded, who could guess the price of such a toy ? the one i saw was in a research lab at pitt university. it would seem to me quite possible to do hobos with such a system.

 

[airamp]

Scratchmo,

First what type of scope are you using now?

It really helps to know what scope you are using in that a comparison can be made to what you are looking for.

Sam is correct in that Scopes with (turrets,really fix lens rotating inside the body of the scope) are much brighter, and clearer. The reason for this is there are less lens or pieces of glass between the eye and the object. (the difference is like a camera lens in that the less glass of higher quality will need less light (F stops) and will be of higher resolution

The OPMI has rotating fixed lens so it fills the bill but it is also one of the most expensive.

Lieca and Wild (M series scopes) are of the same optic quality (in my opinion and some can be gotten at a better price.

Leica's M series scopes are still made in switzerland and are really Wild Or Leitz lenses as are the Zeiss (now made in Germany).

Both excellent scopes. Olympus are Japanese scopes now with japanese lenses (very good quality but really not on par with the zeiss or leica/wilds).

All zoom scopes will not have the brightness or resolution you are looking for so the Leica or Wild M3 series would be the best in the class.

M3Z Zoom I have one and love it.

M3B Turret type with 3 Mags (can get more by changing the occulars from 10 to 15 or 20X) I have one of these and they are clearer and brighter than the M3Z (I hate to admit that).

M3C Also a Turret scope with 5 Mags and same low and high as the B (also can change occulars for the inbetweens) Hard to find. I also have one of these and it too is like the B in that the brightness and clearity is better than the Z.

A big surprise is the Leica S4E which is a Zoom scope that is ALMOST as Bright as the C and B Leica/Wilds and is Quite crisp resolution wise.

It also has a 37 degree ergo head built in to it so it is much easier on the neck and eye position. This is a very impressive scope for the money and is a surprise to me..

Well that is the skinny from where I sit..

REMEMBER THAT: the higher mag you use regardless of what scope you have or plan on getting the lower the resolution (clearity) you will get and the more light it will need.

The turret type (internal switching of fixed lenses (not a zoom) will alway be brighter and clearer. How much depends on the price of the lens. (camera equilivent a F1.2 fixed lens will be much much more than a F2.8 fixed and a Zoom F3.4 will be the cheapest and require the most light)

Higher mag also means that the depth of field (3D) will be less with all scopes.

Tilt the scope to change the plane of focus is the best you can do to get a depth view and crank back on the mag.

Hope this all makes cents..

AirAmp

 

[Scratchmo]

It looks like I came to the right place for advice. AirAmp - I'm currently using a Meiji. It's ok, but for one, my zoom/focus thing stopped working so I have to refocus each time I adjust the zoom. The 45X power is probably enough power for as small as I want to go, but the way I hear people talk about the Zeiss, it would seem this or something comparable would be the way to go - possibly with a bit more power just to have it available... say around 60X. I even tried a small digital scope through a computer monitor which might have worked but there was just enough delay in the signal that made it impossible to work with. That screen type viewing that Monk is talking about looks like something worth looking into. Monk, what would I type into google to find such a critter?

 

[airamp]

Hi,

Well start by doing this to get the scope in what is called parafocal (stays in focus throughout the zoom range).

Proper User Set-up for Stereozoom Binocular Microscopes

1. Set cross-line target on stage. Best results are achieved with 0.0006" cross-line reticle of
30 mm diameter. Focus and center cross-line image at highest magnification setting.
(If no glass cross-line is available try making your own cross-line with a very fine pen.) It
may become obvious to you that your eyes must strain in order to focus on the center of
the very fine cross-line. Continue with the rest of this procedure.

* This eye strain effect may be the cause of user complaints and can be corrected by a LASER alignment performed at ACC’s facility.

2. If your microscope has dual diopter adjusters (one on each eyepiece tube) they should
both be set at the zero mark or line. If there is only one diopter adjuster, please see line #3.

3. Focus at highest magnification using the stand focus knob. “Best focusâ€￾ preference
should be given to the fixed eyepiece side (usually under the right eyepiece). Do not
move the stand focus knob from here on.

4. If you have a fixed eyepiece -- Looking through the fixed eyepiece side check focus of the cross-line target image at lowest zoom magnification setting. The fixed eyepiece image should still be clear. If not, the scope needs other adjustments.

5. Focus the other eyepiece also at lowest magnification using the adjustable diopter
collar under the eyepiece itself (usually under the left eyepiece). Again, do not use
the stand focus knob. If dual diopters are available - each eyepiece should be
adjusted for best focus individually. Using a jewelers screwdriver, now set each diopter
adjuster to its zero mark. This will ensure that you will always be able to quickly reset
your scope to your best parfocal setting very quickly and easily even if other people use it.

6. Scope should now stay focused when going from high to low magnification
as long as the stand focus was set at highest magnification, and eyepieces were
focused correctly (and matched) at lowest magnification setting.

7. Recheck by setting scope at highest magnification, focus image using the stand knob then go to the lowest magnification. Both images should be clear. Use this procedure before starting your work under the microscope at the beginning of each day or after someone else has adjusted your microscope.

** Once this procedure has been completed, the diopter adjuster(s) should not be moved.



If you need more mag. Change your eyepieces to 15X and that would increase your max Mag to about 67.5X (at the 45X setting X 1.5)

(but decreases your field of view..) Get some giveup some...

AirAmp

 

[Sam]

Ron: I tried one of those stereo scope with a viewing screen. I believe it was called Mantis and was very expensive. I just tested one at a show but have not engraved with one. I don't know how the brightness, sharpness, and clarity compare with a conventional stereo microscope. It's an interesting scope but I'm not sure if it's as good or better than what engravers are currently using. While it does have a screen, it still has 3D vision by having two eye paths.

Airamp has provided a lot of valuable microscope information. I might add that one of the big differences between my Zeiss and Meiji scopes is that the Zeiss is razor sharp across the entire field of view, while the Meiji is sharpest in the center of the viewing area and begins to degrade as it reaches the edges. And the Zeiss has superior brightness. This said, I can engrave just as well with a Meiji as they are excellent microscopes. But when I used a Zeiss when teaching an engraving class at the Alexandre School of Optical Setting in Belgium, I became consumed with getting one for myself.

On my tutorial site there's a condensed version of Airamp's setup procedure. When you described the problem of having to refocus when you zoom, I immediately thought that you might not have it setup correctly. Once set, you will be able to zoom without having to refocus. Mine's at the bottom of this page.

 

[Scratchmo]

This is some very useful info. I really appreciate you guys taking the time to educate me on this stuff. I'm off to try to fix the zoom/focus thing. I will also re-set it as per Sam's tips and let you know how it works. I think I might make a bid on the Zeiss on Ebay as well if it hasn't already been bid out of range. Sam, I know what you're talking about the image not being sharp around the edges on the Meiji. Edge-to-edge sharpness would be a huge plus for this stuff I'm talking about. Thanks again everyone!

 

[mitch]

"I even tried a small digital scope through a computer monitor which might have worked..."

were you wearing your 3D glasses?

 

[Scratchmo]

"I even tried a small digital scope through a computer monitor which might have worked..."

were you wearing your 3D glasses?

No, I'm waiting 'til I reach "Celebrity Guru" status before I don the cool shades.

BUT, that may be coming very soon! At least I feel pretty cool right now. I just won that Zeiss Scope on Ebay for $2054 total w/shipping. Not bad considering I was looking at one for $4200 before coming here for advice. AND my Meiji is getting fixed on top of it! Thanks everyone! :bow: :clapping: :banana: