How hard is too hard

[thughes]

I have a question about hardness. I am thinking about building another competition benchrest gun over the winter and I would like to engrave the action. We use custom made actions and I could probably get them to ship me one prior to hardening (they are stainless), but this would require 3 rounds of shipping with all of the associated FFL/paperwork nonsense (yes a single shot bolt action, no barrel, no stock, no trigger, no nothin still requires all of that nonsense). And it would probably take a year or better. My question is, could I engrave a finished action. They are hardened to 36 - 38 Rc. Thanks for the help.

Todd

 

[rayf24]

Take the paper trail it will be worth it in the end don't make life difficult for yourself.
Ray

 

[SamW]

I read years ago that anything over 37c was getting pretty hard to engrave. This was before the popularity of carbide tool bits and pneumatic hammers. I did a number of M21s for the USRAC custom shop in the late 80s and early 90s. The shop foreman told me their specs were for 42 to 46c on the actions and that they tried to keep them at the 42 level so they could be engraved. They were difficult, taking half again or more time to engrave, a lot of tool sharpening and a refined vocabulary. How accurate those numbers are I could not say.

Just as a long shot, you might ask them if they could provide a test piece of hardend (36-38c) metal you could try. From my experience I would go with the hardened action...and probably wish I hadn't at times. I know, big help, but it is a hard question to answer (pun intended).

 

[thughes]

Thanks for your time and thoughts guys. The other part of the issue is that I did the butt plate and scope rings of my rifle and guys have seen them all season and now I have a few of them to do over the winter. Soooo, if it was possible to do finished actions, the same could happen there, assuming I don't screw mine up. But for sure not many shooters would take the time to go thru getting an action in the white while building a competition gun. Again, thanks for your thoughts.

Todd

 

[scott99]

Hi, I know it will be BEAUTIFUL when you cut it. I was in the long range target rifle trade for quite a while and I would ask possibly a forbiden question.:thinking:

Have you thought about the possibility of changing the harmonics of the action when it is engraved. From past experience I have seen that very small changes can affect this with dire results. The thing that makes target actions work is that they have the same harmonic qualitys from shot to shot.

One would think that it is "such a small change,why worry" I have seen groups double because a small change was made to an action. I do mean small, like clearance cut for sight ect.

I would also note that with a benchrest gun you need perfect harmonics for the gun to be a winner.

If this is something you don't worry about then dump this question, and please realize it was asked with all resect for your abilitys.:bow:

scott99

 

[thughes]

Hey Scott,
Yes this is certainly a valid concern, and yes I am very concerned with the performance of the gun. As of a couple of weeks ago I was in second place for shooter of the year in the game I'm shooting, less than one point out when averaging scores for the year, so I'm all about accuracy. You probably know way more about it than I do, but isn't most of the harmonics in the barrel, although the whole rifle does work together. But I have seen a very few other rifles written up that were engraved and were winners. I thought (and my gunsmith may tell me I'm crazy) that once the engraving was done and the rifle load tuned, and nothing was changed, then you were good to go. I have a BAT Machine action and they have their name on it. Stolle writes a tone of stuff on the side of theirs, so I was thinking it wouldn't hurt. Maby I will ask the question on one of the benchrest forums and see if I get laughed off of it Thanks for keeping me straight.

Todd

 

[scott99]

Pressure runs

Hi, yup a bunch of stuff certainly happens when a bullet goes down the tube, and correctly this is the major point of changes.

But think of the action as a dissipation point for all the recoil force of the rifle. The shot when fired will cause vibration in the action and is normally dispersed out thru the skin of the action itself. Break up the surface of the action and you get uneven vibration. This changes the way the rifle settles after each shot. If the rifle settles a bit differently shot to shot you get bigger groups.

As to the name of manufacture believe me the good action makers (Time and such) take all these cuts into production design and worry anyway. :thinking:

I belive YOU know how small a change can affect your shooting, but for others reading this we are talking about thousands of an inch here. We are not talking about 1/2 inch groups at a hundred yards.

I have never tryed to get an action hardened after engraving, that might settle the thing enough as to work. But to be honest I don't think high end makers would like to place their hopes on it.

So what shoots the best, SMOOTH stuff, smooth regulated barrels,smooth connected bedding (smooth and tight) and then we go off to the distant land of trigger jump.

I guess I would call the maker and simply ask, they would be the best judge of your action and ideas.

I personaly know people that won't even clean an action for a whole season because it WILL change group size.

So have fun,(nice shooting by the way) and do what seems best to you. To me I would leave the action alone as made as much as possible. One last thing to consider,if you cut someone elses rifle and he comes back with "this shoots like **** now"(remember we are talking thousands here) what is the fix?

Good shooting.

scott99

 

[thughes]

Hey Scott, check these out. And check out the article in AccurateShooter.com "Speedy's 6ppc - Art of accuracy". It's a stiller Viper action that they said took 2 years to get done, thus my question of engraving it after hardening. Of course there are all kinds of stress risers and stuff I don't even begin to comprehend, but I just figured if was good enough for Speedy it was good enough for the likes of a hacker like me :beatup: At least that's what gave me the idea of doing it. Man you do bring up a good point though, if a guys bugholer turned into a mouseholer after I got done, he might be a bit Ill about it.

 

[scott99]

Hi, what a nice looking rifle, well that just goes to show a person things can go every way there is.

I wish you all the luck and success with your new shooter.

I am sure it will all work out for the best.

Have fun, shoot well and live long.

scott99

 

[thughes]

Well, it was just a thought. Don't know if I will ever pull it off. I'll keep you posted.

Todd

 

[scott99]

Hi, I would certainly be interested in your progress. The whole thing is very interesting. :thinking:

I watch the Forum regularly and I would like to see what you have done. I know it's a long project time wise, but then I am very patient.

All the best.

scott99

 

[Southern Custom]

So I just finished engraving the lockplate on my Kentucky Longrifle. I wonder if I've ruined it for target shooting? (HA):biggrin:

 

[thughes]

Lane, only if you are a LOT better than I am with my flintlock.

Todd