Graver quality

[jbmartin]

Question for the Western Engravers out there...
After several years of trial and error, I would like to ask the question...
What is the best maker of gravers for flat 45's. I use them almost exclusively for the work I do.
It is all Western scroll and "old west" type engraving.
I recently viewed Diane Scalese's dvd on the subject and she said the HSS were the best and she didn't like the thinner (top to bottom) gravers.
I had some Mueller 45 flats that I sharpened to the same angles as my GlenSteel that I have been using.
Doing some test cuts, the Mueller wears off the corners and face much faster than the GlenSteel.
So, my question is this, "What is the best flat graver for Western Bright cutting?" the second question being "What is the best flat graver for Western Bright cutting in nickel?".
I wish I could work in sterling silver all day, but that is just not possible at the time.

Thanks!

JB

 

[Sam]

Unfortunately there is no 'best' graver material, JB. You will find that different engravers experience different performance from the same graver. Some will claim one brand is the ultimate while another engraver gets better results with something else. This is due to the fact that different people exert different forces when cutting. Only through trial and error will you discover what works best in YOUR hands.

Cheers / Sam

 

[diane]

Hi JB. If you are cutting nickel, you might prefer the glensteel. Nickel is tough stuff to bright cut. The QC gravers seem to be stronger than the traditional (Mueller) gravers, but that also means they can be more brittle. The snapping out of the cut is usually what takes off a corner. I have "test driven" some of the european gravers (traditional length)- beautifully shaped and ground, but the 45 flats would break at the corners quite quickly. I rarely bright cut nickel, but have good success bright cutting mild steel with the glensteel gravers shaped the same as a traditional flat.

An old and dear engraving friend told me once that sometimes gravers need a rest. Not all gravers are created equally!

Hope this helps. Diane

 

[Denny]

Hello JB -

My experience doing western style on nickel is that the Glensteel gravers have held up better than anything else for me. This includes doing bright cut in steel as well as nickle, brass, and copper. The corners do not hold up for me on the gravers made of harder steels when doing this kind of cutting. I do however really like the Cobalt and Carbolt types for square and 120 degree gravers. One thing that I do is slightly radius the heel on flats for bright cutting and that helps preserve the corners even on the Glensteel. I have made some gravers out of good quality files and they work great if you have the patience to grind and polish them without messing up the temper. Sam is right of course that everbody cuts a little different and you need to find what works best for you. I was just letting you know what my experience has been. Good luck and all the best to you.

 

[silverchip]

Western Bright cut flat gravers

I have about 30 years experience in silversmithing and western bright cut engraving. I too was frustrated by the constant need to sharpen and polish my gravers throughout a days work and thought "there's got to be a better way".
At one point in time I worked at a router bit company and discovered carbide.My job consisted of machining router bit bodies and silver soldering the carbide tips on to them . And the light went on!!!! so I obtained some carbide from my workplace and went home to experiment.
I proceeded to build my own carbide tipped engraving tools;flats,squares,ongelettes ect,This went on for several years and so did the experimentation with tool geometry.
I was at a gun show in Pasadena when I first met Ray Phillips of NGraver fame.He was happy to show me his new product of high quality square carbide graver blanks and I was happy to purchace them.
I went home and tried them out.They worked wonderfully for silver,no more spending hours of the day resharpenning and polishing,they stayed sharp and produced the brightest cuts all day long.
I was doing piece work for several companies at the time and found that I could increase my output by about a third.
You need to adjust the angles for grinding and polishing and practice cutting out of a cut instead of pulling out of a cut when you are using carbide.
I first started with a 45 face and a 15-20 heel but discovered carbide is very brittle and chipped the corners off quickly so I went with a 30 face and a very short 25 heel with a high polish, slightly rounding off the bottom corners to mantain strength. It was magic!!
By holding my tool in one place and turning the ball into my work, I could cut all day and produce the best bright cuts and make money too!!
While I did have a Gravermax at the time I still did all of my bright cutting by hand as I feel this is the best quality in skill and looks great.

 

[jbmartin]

Thanks for all the information.

I was looking at giving the carbide graver a try.
The other thing that I think will help is that I am going to upgrade my old block that only weighs 16 pounds with a Magnablock. I have used one a little before and it sure seems to put a lot more "power" in my left hand.

Silverchip, thanks for the info on angles as well, with the glensteel, I was at a 35 face and 20 heel, so the next 5 degrees may make a world of difference. One question, when you say a short heel, what sort of length are you talking?

Attached is a picture of a buckle that I have on eBay. Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated.
It is 14 ga nickel with sterling bead edge and a red brass figure.

Thanks!

 

[Haraga.com]

J.B. I want to add one more P.O.A. to the great info. you have received already. You may have to temper your gravers especially if you are using H.S.S.. That can be a test of patience.

 

[silverchip]

I guess the first thing that would say about using a carbide graver is that there is a steep learning curve and I am talking about hand push engraving your bright cuts in silver for the most part.You need to be persistant in your practice in order to develop your skill level and doing contract or piece work can give you the oppertunity to do that.( I am not advocating this as a career just a vehichle to gain experience.)That said,you were asking for info on heel geometry and critique on your buckle.Well here goes,
First the heel on my carbide gravers are fairly short,about.025".But like Sam says on his DVD no two people will end up with the same result given the same tool but that he starts them out with the same tool and they go from there.
Start with the .025 heel length and experiment with longer or shorter heels and slightly different angles to find your fit. The most important thing is they must be sharp and well polished ,not only the cutting edge but the burnishing angle on the heel or the very back of the heel edge.Not only does the heel control the depth of the cut ,it also burnishes the cut as well thus is the term"BrightCut Engraving".
Remember that in order to sharpen carbide gravers,you must use diamond laps and to polish them I use diamond powder on a piece of good top grain skirting leather that is split down and glued to a piece of steel.
I have tried spray dia. and it works OK too.
I notice that the figure on the buckle is the same one that was used for the "Directors"trophy buckles at the Salinas rodeo made by Ken Ramoni years ago(I think.).Is it gold or bronze?(I now own his original molds.)
You might try using a line graver for wriggle cutting the borders and stippling over that in the back ground.Maybe try using an 8/3 or 8/4 to wriggle the scroll lines,if you do this with a light touch it is easier to fix any elbows in the scroll line when you do your shading with the 18/10 or what ever you use for a line graver.I am not a fan of nickel silver and think you're "Pretty Tuff" for gettin it dun on nickel.I'm sure that you have your reason for going that way but even at this stage of the game you would be better off using sterling silver and staying with it from now on.It only gets better if you stick to your guns and don't give in to "what's the cheepest you could make that for,mister?"Not only do you get to make a better product but you also get to work on one too.

 

[jbmartin]

Silverchip, thanks for all the information!
One thing I did pick up from another source was on the polishing of the graver.
After all the hone work is done, I use a worn out Sunshine polishing cloth to put a final polish on them by stopping them with the cloth on top of a piece of leather.
This for me works better than a leather strop or anything else I had available and gives a really good polish.
I have some carbide graver coming, so will have to try it on them.
The figure on the buckle is just red brass, purchased from IJS in Albequerque.
I use a line graver to wriggle with some, I wish I had a better camera, as you could see it better.
The space inside the circle of the figure is all wriggled with 8/12? liner.
The reason for the nickel is that I wanted to get a lot of engraving in and maybe make enough by doing them that I could get back to sterling and stay there. All of the overlay on steel that I do is with sterling in 24 ga., but the heavier guages for buckles are a little out of my "hobby" price range, unless someone orders one.

 

[bronc]

JB,
You mentioned you are going to get a new engraving ball. Before you buy a Magnablock take a look at the ones Ray LeTourneau builds. I'm not trying to start a tool war here, but I have yet to talk to anyone who has used Ray's block that doesn't prefer it hands down over the Magnablock.

Stewart

 

[Powderhorn]

Jbmartin; There is a thread in the tools and Tip section, on graver hardness.

 

[Unkl Ian]

Attached is a picture of a buckle that I have on eBay.
Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated.
It is 14 ga nickel with sterling bead edge and a red brass figure.
Thanks!

The lighting doesn't show your work as well as it could.
I think there are a couple threads here on photography and lighting,that might be helpfull.

 

[rod]

Diane,

Good to see and your husband in Reno!

In my bright cuts, I do polish my flats brightly and do a final leather wipe after ceramic lap but often get a bit of " dullness", or scuffing, like it is "molecular cling" on my copper and sometimes silver plates. It appears less when using carbide flats. I do use some lubricants on the graver. Any thoughts?

Let me say again how great your GRS Transition to Bright Cutting week was with Ron Smith!

best wishes!

Rod

 

[rod]

Silverchip,

You obviously have done a lot of bright cutting and have customized your tools. Thanks for sharing your wisdom here!

I am experimenting with some bright cutting on 30mm dia silver rings for wood flutes, and quite liking "flats" with shallow curved bottoms. Diane and Ron make use of these and use carbide 1/8 inch round carbide as the starting bit, then flatten that radius substantially to give a shallower scoop, then heel it at about 20 degrees, rounding the heel back. These rounded flats will scoop out nicely at the wide end of your cut. I am sure you will have used similar for certain cuts. I have had nice success in making a rounded heel by first putting my front face on, be it 45 degrees or other, but making the heel by loading a polishing mop with diamond paste and polishing the bottom sharp edge off into a rounded heel and it does that pretty fast giving an even curve on carbide bits. Of course you risk taking the edge off with buffing, but when the heel is buffed to a nice shape, simply touch up the front face on your lap to restore the edge again, and boy that tool cuts bright, using that burnish effect you speak of. Another thing to do is have a 1 inch dia felt buff on a 3/32 shaft that will fit into your 30,000rpm handpiece. Load that little felt wheel with 1/4 micron diamond paste stick, and with the handpiece running in reverse, give the heel of a flat a little final polish, coming at it from the back end. It wont really take anything off the edge but give a sweet lustre to the heel.

no, or no?

best

Rod

 

[silverchip]

Rod,

I know there probably several ways to get a good polish on your carbide gravers.All of which use diamond and I won't tell you "My method works better than yours" or any such thing like that. I have observed that a finely polished tool will be less likely to break than one that has striations(lines) left on it and that by polishing the left and right corners of the heel that you get better control of your tool.
I know there are several grades of carbide and not all of them are suited for engraving tools as the desinty and grain size in the carbide dictate its usage.NGravers carbide blanks work the best for me and I'm pretty sure it has to do with type of carbide that they sell more than the brand name. actually, John B. told me about it when they first started to sell these blanks and it was shortly after that that I met Ray at the gun show and purchased some of their tools.
I still make some carbide tipped tools that are quite wide:45,46 flat and several chisel widths up to 3/4"for floral shading on larger patterns.If you do any silver soldering you can make your own custom carbide gravers too.Like I said,most of what I engrave is silver or gold and the geometry of these tools is intended for that and almost always pushing by hand too.
As for the cloudy appearance of your bright cuts,try using a little silicon spray or other lube on a "dip rag" and the other possibility is that you might try alittle steeper angle on the heel and a shallower angle on the face to find the optimum included cutting angle that works for you.

 

[castagnos&s]

hello jb,
I spent some time with Dave (silverchip) last winter and believe me he knows what he is talking about. I was using hss myself until he turned me on to carbide the polish you can put on the heel of your graver is incomperable to any other material and they stay sharp a whole lot longer. I have to agree with him on the choice of material also if I get someone that wants work done in brass I still charge the same as I would for sterling. Nickel and brass cut harder than sterling and the end product just isn't quite as nice. The only difference i have on my heel/face angles are 30/15 rather than35/20. I hope this helps.
mike

 

[jdumars]

JB, so you did that buckle with only a 45 flat? I would love to know how you did the various straight cuts.

 

[griff silver]

the right angle

The right angle is the key to cutting nickle to me. I engrave sterling an average of 12 hours a week. I engrave nickle more than that. I am without a dowt a big fan of tunsten carbide when it comes to sterling but on nickle its not so grand. The best material ive found for nickle is carbalt as far as I know it can only be gotten from linsay. The Glenseel is also good but doesnt seem to leave as bright of cut as the other. From my trials with different angles what seems to cut smoothest in nickle is a 50degree face with 15 degree heel. this simply makes a stronger flat and assist in cut dept on harder metals. A bright cut in nickle is almost impossible as half the cut is a cut and the rest is a tear. This is simply a guide line for an experament in the end you most likly use something that a combo off all the responces you goten.

 

[jbmartin]

jdumars, I did it with the flat and then also a 24/10 liner, I assume those are the straight cuts your referring to, other gravers used were a 38 flat to wriggle the stems and a 18/6 straight liner to wriggle inside the circle.
Griff and everyone else, thanks for the tremendous amount of information.
Like you say, what I come up with will be a combination of a lot of bits and pieces.
I'm going to work on getting a light tent setup to try to get better pictures.
Thanks again to all!

 

[BrianPowley]

jb.........Nice buckle. Nothing to be ashamed of there.
(Admit it---it was fun to see it turn out so nice,huh?)