Getting Started

[Cesare]

Hi,

I'm green to engraving and this is my first post on this site. I've ordered several books on engraving/scrolls/learning and so on.... which I expect to arrive in the mail quite shortly.

I would like your suggestions on tool purchase's, what would you recomend (btw, I will like to engrave firearms)....and why you recomend one tool over the other.
1 - Type of pneumatic engraver and air source.
2 - Type of block/vise
3 - Type of sharpening system
4 - Type of Micro Scope

Your help would be greatly appreciated

Cesare

 

[Ed Westerly]

Welcome, Cesare!

I am not well versed in all that is available in the way of tools, microscopes, vises, etc., but I will tell you what works for me, because firearms are all that I engrave.

I started out with GRS, and have stayed with them, because nothing I have bought has failed in seven years, except my microscope's light source, which they replaced three times for free.

I got a Gravermax first, because I didn't want to spend a lot of money. Don't do this.
I replaced the Gravermax with a gravermach, and am extremely happy with it. It is much more controlable and easy to use. Much more versatile.
I got the Magna vise and it does most jobs very well. The only problem I have incountered is vibration through the rubber doughnut, but this has been only a slight problem. I also added the turntable under the vise, and this was worthwhile as it allows much more latitude to get the work centered ubder the microscope.

I use the GRS power honing system, and have had no complaints so far.

I use the meiji microscope that GRS sells with an Acrobat stand. I like both.

Hope this helps. Oh BTW, I use the Gravermax to power my rotary handpiece, and for a place to stack my loupes and extra parts!

 

[highveldt]

Bruce et al;

I am in a similar situation, although I have a vise, sharpening system and other items. I am a 69 year old who is learning to engrave, and I believe that an pneumatic graver would be of help to me, but I have not ever been able to try one.

Researching the types and brands of pneumatic gravers leads me to believe that a used and well cared for Artisan AirGraver would be a good tool for me to start. However, searching for a long time has not turned up a Artisan AirGraver for me.

Are these Artisan AirGravers never sold by their owners; thrown away when the owners buy something else; or what? Maybe I am looking in the wrong place--where should I look?

By-the-way, I am learning to engrave because I restore and refurbish very vintage English shotguns.

Kindest regards;
Steve Howell
In the boondocks of South Carolina

 

[mitch]

Hi Cesare-

I'm going to respectfully disagree with Bruce. If can find a used, well-maintained GraverMax at a good price- especially if the deal includes handpieces- i would very strongly recommend one. IMHO, it will be YEARS before your skills are to the level that you'll be able to detect the slight difference between a GraverMax & a GraverMach*. For the vast majority of work, and the vast majority of engravers, they are virtually interchangeable.

Either of them will require a quality air compressor (they consume quite a bit of air.) Search this site for a recent thread on that very topic- and others. It's been pretty thoroughly discussed around here.

Another option is a GraverMeister, which doesn't need a separate compressor. These are sturdy, well-built workhorses that can provide years of good service with a little proper maintenance. Once again, it will likely be years before you outgrow its capabilities.

GRS blocks & sharpening systems are excellent. My only advice on microscopes is to avoid cheap Chinese clones. I prefer Leica, but Meiji, Olympus, & others will work fine.

*The GraverMach AT comes pre-equipped with the AirTact system. Otherwise, if you want that option it's an aftermarket add-on (and not a cheap one, either).

 

[Ed Westerly]

going to respectfully disagree with Bruce

Mitch, you should never do that!!! ;-) I only recommended against the gravermax because it does less ( no RPM control, etc.) and if you can afford the gravermach, you'll probably be much happier in the long run, I know I was.

 

[KCSteve]

I'll toss in a conditional suggestion:

If you'll be learning by yourself - no one around to show you things - then get the Lindsay Template based sharpening system. The Dual Angle is infinitely flexible but the cost of that is that you have to figure out how to make whatever point you're after. Fairly easy after someone shows you the ropes, fairly tricky on your own. The Lindsay system is darn near fool proof but limited to doing what you have templates for.

In general it's hard to go wrong with all the goodies available today.

If you can make your way to a class it'll be time very well spent.

 

[Ed Westerly]

Cesare and Mitch,

I just got back from the GRS web site, and we may have been talking at cross purposes, as they have changed the GraverMax from what is was when I bought one. The model I bought appears to no longer exist! It was much different from what they are now calling the GraverMax. I actually have an early GraverMach, which they now call the GraverMax. Confusing.

 

[mitch]

actually Bruce, the GraverMax has always been variable speed (mine was made '86), but you might be thinking of either the GraverMate or perhaps the GraverSmith, which were simpler units?

and i'll second Steve's advice: a good class will save you months, maybe years, on the learning curve. there is just SO MUCH that is more easily picked up watching someone actually do it, as opposed to reading about it. you might want to investigate some of the free beginner tutorials on www.engraversstudio.com and the online classes thru that site, especially if you don't live near any 'bricks-&-mortar' schools.

 

[DKanger]

I'd have to say that it depends on three things:
a. the depth of your financial resources.
b. your anticipated return on your investment.
c. your desire and its long term sustainability.

Do you plan to make a career out of this, or will it just be an intermittent hobby? Invest first in an education by taking a beginner's class from one of the many which are offered. This will start you down the road in either case. Most instructors have all the equipment for you to try and learn the differences to see which suits you. Books are to supplement your education, not give you one.

Then, if you decide to go pro buy the best that your wallet will allow. If you are just a hobbyist, you won't need all the bells and whistles and can go with mid-range tools like Mitch said. Good work can be done with any tool.....it's the operator that determines that. Don't throw away your money on stuff you will never recoup your investment on. Regardless if you decide on a career or hobby, never buy a tool which won't pay for itself in the long run.

For an analogy, you need a new roof on your house. Labor and material for a professional roofing crew will cost you $8K and the job can be done in 2 days. You can do it yourself with hammer and nails but it will take you a week. If you buy a pnuematic roofing nailer, you can do it in 3.5 days. Which option is worth your time and money?

 

[Cesare]

I really can't justify spending $2,500 ($1000 for class, airfare from Canada, accomodations, foods and so on...) for a one week class at GRS. I was hoping to learn on my own and the money I'd saved would go towards tools.
I would be doing this as a suplement to my income, I work a 4x4 schedule and I would engrave on a part time basis once my skills are up to par (a few years from now).

I was hoping more help on peoples likes/dislikes..pros/cons on tools. I only want to purchase tools once and not make the mistakes many have...soooo please help with your comments on tools selection.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Cesare

You are probably putting the cart before the horse a bit here.

What you have to decide is how much money you want to spend and set a budget. There are so many variables in tool selection that it would take a book to get them all in. The only real variable is your personal preference and that is something that you will only learn when you get hands on experience. There are no right or wrong choices. A lot of the opinion is subjective. I have used a wide variety of tooling and my own personal preference lies with the GRS tools and system.....................but others prefer the hand tools like hammer and chisel and others prefer the NGraver tooling and others the Lindsay tooling. None of us are right or wrong. It is just what we like using. I haven't seen any evidence to date that says anyone can engrave better or worse with any of the systems out there.

All of the tools are good and cater for a wide variety of budgets. From push graver/hammer and chisel right through to the most expensive air system that you can buy. They all do their job as intended and are of the highest quality and none of them will let you down.........................That applies to all the tooling that you will require. Sharpeners (by hand or mechanical), ball vices, gravers etc etc etc.

You can't make a "mistake" purchasing tools unless you go for some weird or strange thing that no one else has ever heard of to save a couple of dollars. It is not the tooling that will make you an engraver. It is your artistic and design skills coupled with a passion that will keep you up at all hours of the day and night practicing. At the end of the day it will be your drawing skill and design ability that will dictate weather or not you will be any good at it. The tools are just the implements to put the design on the chosen metal...............the tools that you need above all else is your hands and artistic ability between your ears.

If you look in the buy/sell part of the forum there are often some very good second hand deals.

Your biggest cost is going to be time......and an awful lot of it if you want to make or supplement your living further down the track. If you are going down the self teach path then you will need castings, books, video/DVD's as well as the tooling. If you have only an hour a month to dedicate to practicing then I would suggest that you take up golf. You need to put in several hours per week for a minimum of 12 months just to get you proficient. To get really good then you will have to double those figures and then some. And that is just the cutting side of things. You then need to do the same with drawing.

Think very hard about how much you want to spend.................above all else that will dictate your choices. There's no point in looking at a Rolls Royce when all you can afford is a bicycle. Both will get you from A to B and back again.


Cheers
Andrew

 

[Keith]

I agree with what Andrew said.
I would like to add from my personal experience trying to learn by myself.
I had bought and read loads of books watched videos and stabbed myself numerous times TRYING to learn to engrave.
It wasnt until I got together with another engraver and he grabbed my hand and straightened it and showed me how it how to hold the tools properly and how to engrave. also sharpening tools the right way.
It will speed up your learning process by leaps and bounds over learning how to cut by yourself. Possibly with bad habits.....It won't be money wasted but money invested.
Search around and see if there is a hand engraver locally you can visit.
Good luck,Keith

 

[Ed Westerly]

Cesare,

I have to agree with Andrew and the rest when they tell you that learning by yourself is the hardest way to go. I have given you my equipment list, and I like what I have (GraverMate, Mitch, you are right. I just didn't go down to the shop to check before I wrote!!!), but I must admit I would not have progressed as quickly as I have if I hadn't been guided by master engravers at engraving classes. Of all the money I've spent in learning to engrave, easily the most profitable was the money I spent on classes.

Good luck, and keep us apprised of your progress.

 

[Cesare]

Seems my dream is becoming just that.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

None of this is being written to put you off.

It would be money well invested to take a class and see how it all works. You will get hands on experience and see what you need and don't need.

For instance, many of us use a microscope because our eyesight isn't as good as it used to be. And yet many of the worlds best engravers do not use a microscope. With a microscope you need some extra bits and pieces like a turn table. Your eye sight may be perfectly fine and you may be able to use an optivisor.............. but you won't know till you have a go and see the difference between the two.

There is little point in any of us saying buy this or buy that simply because we know little of your situation and you will get about 100 conflicting reports that will probably confuse you more than help you.

First set your budget and make it realsitic.................then tailor your tools to that budget. The rest will fall into place over time.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Ed Westerly]

That sounds like you are giving up. Please don't. Nothing worthwhile is easy, and most things worthwhile require sacrifice. I thought I would be a great engraver as soon as I got a little instruction, but as could be expected, I wasn't.

If you have the fire in your belly to make guns better looking than their manufacturer did, you'll be fine. Just take it as slowly or as fast as you bank account can stand, and someday you'll look back as a well known engraver, and say... wow, what a ride!

 

[Jane]

Hi, I know your more interested in the tool aspect but since you mentioned that you are in Canada and taking a class would be difficult....I wondered if you have heard of Chris Decamillis' web site WWW.engraversstudio.com
He offers many classes over live feed. This would eliminate a lot of expenses when it comes to classes.
Don't be discouraged, no one is trying to discourage you, only trying to let you understand the tools better.
As Andrew said, everyone has a preference on what company to go with, but knowing how to use the tools is much more important than the make/model.
Good luck!

 

[Cesare]

It just seems that the consensus from this forum is that without class/school/mentor I will fail,..it's not very motivating,...but sadly and probably the truth...I don't know.
I have this desire in me, but I can't afford going to another country to learn engraving, I thought I could do it on my own.
I'm not sure what to do now ? I'll look into Chris Decamillis' site,...not sure about this.

 

[Sam]

Hey Cesare...I bought my first set of engraving tools from Dixie Gun Works back in the early 70's. They were assorted gravers and a few wooden handles. I had no idea how to sharpen them much less how to use them. I persevered and eventually became an engraver with very little outlay of money. You have the benefit of this forum and the knowledge that many masters are willing to share with you. You got it easy compared to what it used to be

Here it is in a nutshell:

Option 1.) Buy some basic hand tools and some books and read this forum from top to bottom and learn to sharpen and use those tools. The learning curve will be tough but thousands of us did it and so can you.
Option 2.) Buy pneumatic tools and cut the learning curve by large amount. This is going to cost you but you can get in the game faster.
Option 3.) Take a class and you'll be walkin' the dog with your engraving at an accelerated rate, especially with pneumatic tools.

The ball's in your court. If money's tight then Option 1's the way to go.

~Sam

 

[Jane]

Not only does Chris offer lessons on his web site, but he has started doing "video blogs" and started at the beginning with tool geometries. He does a superb job on explaining why you sharpen with the different geometries. You just need to be a member on his site, which costs nothing.
I don't think everyone thinks you have to take classes to succeed but you need to get some guideance from the start on things like tool sharpening, one of the most important aspects.
Please don't give up, and check out Chris D's site!!!!!