Help, please: Getting shading right

[jzknives]

I bought Ron smiths book on drawing scrolls and while its really nice , it doesn't go over the basic concepts of drawing scrolls and shading. It's mostly advanced stuff.

So my question is where do I start the shading?

It seems every time I try to draw it , it comes out looking non organic and it's obvious that its wrong. But I can't find any resources or guides that tell you how to do shading properly , like where the lines start and where you put the next line.

I will try to upload a picture of progress

 

[GTJC460]

My best suggestion is to study pictures of really good shading. Furthermore, get some castings from FEGA of scroll styles you like. Then really study them. In fact, do wax transfers trying to emulate the same cuts for practice. It will start sinking in quickly.

 

[jzknives]

My best suggestion is to study pictures of really good shading. Furthermore, get some castings from FEGA of scroll styles you like. Then really study them. In fact, do wax transfers trying to emulate the same cuts for practice. It will start sinking in quickly.

I'm not even on the cutting part yet I'm still trying to figure out how to draw it.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Bert, I'm not saying you ain't right about the castings to study shading and scroll but...... they are copies of masterpieces, so sure not for a newbie.
Thing is, even Ron Smiths books I have, they aren't basic designs.
I my opinion, when you start, only try 1 or 2 leave structures and a scroll, no interweaving, no folds or whatever and castings like that I do not know who ever made one.

just mu two cents, arnaud

 

[RDP]

JZ, there are some good shading video instructions by Chris DeCamillis here http://www.engraversstudio.com/apps/vblog/?page=41,
http://www.engraversstudio.com/apps/vblog/?page=16
http://www.engraversstudio.com/apps/vblog/?page=10

this will get you started,
Richard.

 

[GTJC460]

I totally disagree with Arnaud. There is a variety of work available at FEGA. I suggest finding a style you like and would want to emulate. There are many fine examples.

For instance, Mike Dubber is a great source for castings. His style of scroll, in the classic Colt factory engraving style, is not overly complicated. I'm not saying this as a dig on his work. I highly admire his work and that of similar engravers of the past such as AA White, LD Nimschke,... None of these show overly complicated shading. Most leaf structures in these classic styles use 3-7 lines to shade a leaf.

Look at them very carefully. There is a lot to learn from these works.

 

[Southern Custom]

Timely subject matter.
Read Arnaud"s post about why newbies struggle. One of the most frustrating things about engraving is the sheer amount of time it takes to grasp the basics about design, not to mention the time it takes learning to cut those basic scrolls well. Add in information overload from the net. Most of the new engravers I see want to buy equipment and start cutting guns next week. I know I'm not the quickest study and I went about this the hardheaded way, locked in my shop with no outside help, but it took years. (I won't say how many) And I feel only recently did I really grasp what I needed to know to cut for someone beside myself.
Classes are the way to go. I shoulda sat down with Sam A and a blank piece of paper years ago. (Probably still should) It would have taken years off the learning curve.
Layne

 

[GTJC460]

Engraving shading and drawing shading with a pencil, although related, are quite different.

It's very difficult to draw a shade line with a pencil as it would appear on a properly engraved shade line. Understanding the placement and weight of the engraved line is far more important than being able to draw a pretty picture.

 

[GTJC460]

Here are some great examples of excellent shading on not so complicated designs:

http://www.fega.com/prodserv/Casts.asp?recidparam=255
http://www.fega.com/prodserv/Casts.asp?recidparam=125
http://www.fega.com/prodserv/Casts.asp?recidparam=122

This one is particularly good for larger scroll, by Mike Dubber,
http://www.fega.com/prodserv/Casts.asp?recidparam=126

http://www.fega.com/prodserv/Casts.asp?recidparam=205

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Bert, those are nice examples, but yet NOT BASIC.
They have folds and different leaves.

arnaud

 

[KCSteve]

To toss in my two cents:

Drawing shading is very different (and actually harder) than engraving shading. The only way I can really think of drawing it correctly would be with a very fine chisel point ink pen. That way you could emulate the way you can make the engraved line go from just a hint of a line at the start to a wider line at the end.

The key to shading is the same as the key to everything else: flow. The shading lines should all point back to the origin point. This was nicely shown in one of the current sketch threads. Every line in a leaf comes from the origin point, even if the line doesn't actually continue to that point.

The best I can do for shading a drawing is to put just one or two lines - more to show the flow than anything else. They're more to indicate to myself the basic kind of shading I'm doing.

 

[diandwill]

One of my favorite books is the reprint of Nimshke's work. It has a few photos but is mostly smoke pulls. He has a very basic style, quick to cut and not overly complicated, and yet provides quality coverage in a skillful manner. A person could do a lot worse than emulating Nimshke!

 

[Southern Custom]

I agree with Arnaud. What I see as basic, may look impossibly complicated to a beginning engraver. What I see as complicated may look basic to an experienced engraver.

 

[jzknives]

To toss in my two cents:

Drawing shading is very different (and actually harder) than engraving shading. The only way I can really think of drawing it correctly would be with a very fine chisel point ink pen. That way you could emulate the way you can make the engraved line go from just a hint of a line at the start to a wider line at the end.

The key to shading is the same as the key to everything else: flow. The shading lines should all point back to the origin point. This was nicely shown in one of the current sketch threads. Every line in a leaf comes from the origin point, even if the line doesn't actually continue to that point.

The best I can do for shading a drawing is to put just one or two lines - more to show the flow than anything else. They're more to indicate to myself the basic kind of shading I'm doing.

This post is great!

These were just the things I was looking to hear. I'm using the smallest possible mechanical pencil lead and i might as well be drawing with logs.

The hardest part for me is where to place this vanishing point and the angles accociated with them.

 

[Eugene Carkoski]

On Marcus video he shows all the primary shading at the stem of the scroll, do all those first and then work out.

 

[GTJC460]

I'd also recommend this book.

http://www.airgraver.com/Lynton-McKenzie-Book.htm

These smoke prints really show how to execute proper shading.

There should be one heavier force line towards the center of the leaf to indicate the general flow of the leaf. Then use smaller lighter lines to give the leaf it's dimension.

 

[Southern Custom]

Bert,
I had contemplated getting a copy of that book on Lynton. Since I've never looked at a smoke print other than on the computer, what do you think of the value of having them in front of me. Obviously it would be great to have a collection of Lynton's prints for study, that's a given. What I'm curious of is, what can I learn from a smoke that I can't get from a photo?
And I've asked this here instead of a pm as the answer might be useful to others.
Layne
Layne

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Layne, I'm convinced a good detailed photo works as well as a casting or smoke. Not saying you should use my photos that show way of shading, as I still do not master all of it. But at least I can make a good photo that shows all the cuts like you would see under the microscope, even more blown up.
Most photos I see here don't show the shading lines itself, only a blur version of it.

arnaud

 

[mrthe]

Ray Cover have done great castings for study scrolls and shading 3 in particular that are the basic, very simple, intermediate and advanced.

 

[GTJC460]

Bert,
I had contemplated getting a copy of that book on Lynton. Since I've never looked at a smoke print other than on the computer, what do you think of the value of having them in front of me. Obviously it would be great to have a collection of Lynton's prints for study, that's a given. What I'm curious of is, what can I learn from a smoke that I can't get from a photo?
And I've asked this here instead of a pm as the answer might be useful to others.
Layne
Layne

I personally feel smoke prints and castings are invaluable. I feel if you want to be the best, you need to study the best. There's no better way of seeing directly how a master engraver does their work.

FYI, the book I linked to has both positive and negative images of the same parts. Showing on the opposite page which allows you to see it as two different perspectives.