Question: Fill that space practice

[scott99]

Hi,this is an attempt to fill a space properly. I know its just a circle but thats whats up with it. It is cut on the back of an old cull silver dollar so the diameter is just short of 1 1/2 inches. THe whole thing was cut with a 120 degree graver with a 45 degree face and a 15 degree heel. I am still learning to control that 120 and it shows here and there.

I am torn about shading the design or background removal, many of the open areas are very small and that does intimidate me some. I also know my idea of small areas on an engraving is probably way ,way bigger that most Engravers think of as small, but background removal still is a learning process for me. :thinking:

Of course any coments on the cutting or design are more than welcome and needed. If anyone has an opinion on shading or background removal that would be nice too.

scott99

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Go on..........get into it.

there is only one way you are going to learn about background removal..........and that is by doing it. Yes, you will make mistakes but you will also learn a lot.

And yes, you should also shade it

Cheers
Andrew

 

[monk]

removal is a bit easier on silver than some of the hard metals. your celtic design is nice, but i wouldn't practice on a nice piece of silver. i'd get some practice in on copper first. don't know if you have a scope, but here's a case where one would be a real asset. you may end up making some of your own gravers for this type work. used dental drills can make some very useful tiny gravers for getting into all those nooks & crannies. the same geometries on the tiny ones, they're just very small.

 

[scott99]

AHHHHH, BOTH,well that figures, to make something nice put a lot of work into it. I will start tomorrow, thanks for the kick in the pants. I should have just done it in the first place, I do other carving and spend lots of time doing tiny work. For some reason I am having trouble linking the two thought processes together. I think I need to do a project putting both togeather. That was my intent in the first place.

I have made many small tools, not for engraving but for carving, so I should be ok there. Again a place where my carving thinking and engraving thinking should have crossed but haven't.

O'well off I go to " GET INTO IT" thanks again for the needed prod and advice.

scott99

 

[Marrinan]

As a carver Scott you should feel extremely comfortable with relief engraving. There is a learning curve from one material to the other but the principles are the same. Wood, metal, stone, ivory, clay, plastic, glass - same principles of design (the hardest part) just new muscle memory and some different tools (not real different though). You will do just fine. Dive right in and experiment. Fred

 

[diandwill]

I do a lot of Celtic, and generally stipple the background, rather than relieving it. It makes it pop almost as much, and is a lot quicker. I usually cut the lines, stipple, and then recut the lines...maybe with a little flare treatment. It makes real nice crisp cuts and knotwork. It also allows for thinner metal (26-28 gauge).

 

[Andrew Biggs]

to make something nice put a lot of work into it

Yip.......that's the way of it. If was easy, then anyone could do it

The trick to background removal is to have the appropriate size (width) flats to do the job. Also, try rocking the heel, that will give you some extra clearance and helps prevent tearing the walls of the engraving.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[scott99]

Hi, I just wanted to thank Mr. Biggs for his rock the heel tip, I am putting that tip to work and it makes quite a difference.

scott99

 

[Gil]

I've done a fair amount of Celtic engraving and I would have to say that I think your design is very well conceived and fairly well executed. The center portion of the design needs a bit more attention to "cord width". The interlaced cords will present a nicer look if they remain a consistent width throughout. I'll be the first to admit that this can make the design process a merciless pain in the "nether" regions! Over all I really like your design, just a bit more refinement will make it great.

I would remove the background. Yes it is very time consuming but I think in the end it makes for a more dramatic piece. Stippling is also a good method but (and this is just my opinion) I don't think it gives quite as much pop to the knot work.

Concerning shading......I think it depends on what type of result you're looking for. If you want toget the look of the stone carvings or some of the metalwork then shading would be appropriate, especially at the cross-overs. If, however, you are trying to get the look of the Book of Kells or the Lindesfarne Gospels. I don't think the shading works as well, Those designs have a somewhat two-dimensional quality that seems to rely on the forms and outlines for their effect.

Here are a couple of examples of the latter type. Note the even cord width and graphic nature of the designs. I was working toward the styles of the illustrated gospels as opposed to the carved high cross stones. The cuff shows a bit of wear. It's mine and I didn't photograph it for several years.

 

[scott99]

HI Gill, your work is very nice indeed. I am having trouble getting into those small areas to cut them back. I know doing them with a tiny scraper by hand ( its all by hand but I think you know what I mean )will work but was wondering how you get the job done? I have taken to making gravers out of broken or worn dental burrs but they are still too big. I always get drag on an apposing edge someplace and its all rather frustrating.

Any sugesstions along this line would be appreciated. If it comes down to scraping them out one at a time so be it. But it would be nice to find out I can do them in part at least with a graver.

Anybody out there can drop in an oar if they want, I need whatever advice there is on the problem.

Thanks for the help

scott99

 

[Red Green]

I would round and polish the graver at the point. It helps prevent cutting the edges but nothing stops you from forcing it into the edge. If you don't damage it too bad you may be able to reshape it with a punch. However don't do too much repair before finishing repeating a repair will be difficult as it will work harden.

Bob

 

[Andrew Biggs]

The small areas shouldn't be a problem

You can relieve those small areas with a standard square graver. By choice I use a 90 degree square. Shape the end of the graver so that it is very narrow at the face. And keep the heel tiny..........never be afraid of shaping your gravers to what you need to do the job.

The idea is to remove the background so dig the graver in from as many directions as needed and get into the corners. Then you can use a small flat if you like.........but you will find that the stippling will flatten out the small area that you have relieved.

So it is a combination of square gravers and flats that will relieve the background. You can also use a rotary tool if you want but it's not necessary.

On larger areas you can use a square to remove the background and then go over with a flat to knock the ridges down. People use this technique as a depth gauge. However, you can also just use a small flat only if the area is big enough. You simply leave a gap between the cuts and then go back and cut the gaps out. That is also a way of making sure the background removal is even. That is the method I use.

Give it a go and you will find that 99% of your questions will be answered. And remember to shape the tool to what you need. If it needs to be extremley narrow at the face then shape it that way.

cheers
Andrew

 

[Red Green]

I was assuming you had found the tools you wished to use for this work. If not I would recommend learning about and using a graver known as a scraper. It uses a 90 face to push away metal, it sounds course but works well, much like a bulldozer flattening a road. It will save you much time getting a flat surface, it works for many engravers.

Bob

 

[scott99]

Thanks to all for all the help you have given. I am guilty of following "guide lines" to shape my gravers. I have many, many times made a tool just to make one cut on a carving. I am still learning (engraving) and seems that I need to start using my head and stop following the "rules" so to speak.

I was trying to keep engraving just that engraving, I now see that you all run whatever works. I don't catch on real fast, but I get it, stop trying to run stock shapes. Well I will endeavor to get the pail off my head and do as you say use the shapes that work.

The only defense I have at all is that I did learn how to make the standard shapes. Knowledge is good anywhere.

THANKS scott99

 

[thughes]

Hey Scott99, it's a big club man. But Andrew has the patience of 10 normal people.

 

[rod]

As Gil says, Scott,

Get that knot drawing looking good before you start cutting, or you will regret it. He has given a very good example, as a standard to aim for. Some copper practice first of all, will respond much like silver.

Looking forward to seeing your results, and thank you for posting!

Rod

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Scott

Yes, it's very important to adapt your tools to what you are working on.......not adapt the work to the tools. Just remember. The only important bit on a graver is where the graver meets the metal. Everything around that is surplus to requirements and can be ground away as needed.

In many instances it's just a matter of grinding away all the excess metal on the gravers to give you room to work in confines and tight spaces.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[scott99]

I certainly don't want to tax anyones patience, I do in fact appreciate everyones comments and help very much.So again thanks for all the input. All of the problems have been solved by a slip. Yes indeed I made a large slip(no injury but close) So the drawing will be redone, the cutting done with more care and I will try to keep the relief a bit more shallow and will give the whole thing another try. Never give up,NEVER!

I have learned from all this and for that I thankyou very much. If I have ask too much I am sorry, in any case you all have passed on valuable knowledge to me.

Thanks scott99

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Scott

It's no worries at all. This is how we learn things and one of the most effective ways is trial and error. The error side of the ledger can be tedious at times........ but with each project we learn something new to take onto the next project. And on it goes

Don't worry, time and practice will take care of most of it

Cheers
Andrew

 

[mtgraver]

Another good exercise is to fix those oops! learn how to correct or modify. As practice don't stop on this one, proceed doing your best to it through to completion, you could always cut it in half when done to cover your mistake. Those halves could be the light in someone's eyes as a gift or something, not everything is scrap, lol. It's a creation that you've shared so finish it ...... if ya want to!
Mark