Faceting Mach adaption

[Kevin P.]

Hi all
I’m posting a photo of a faceting machine. I would like to adapt this machine to accomplish something different.
For those not familiar with this machine: on the left is a 6â€diamond flat lap, the thing just above is a water container to flush the surface when cutting stone; it also keeps the material cool.
On the right is a platform that can be raised or lowered. On the platform is a handpiece which holds a dop, which holds a stone (held in place with wax) right at the end is an opal (it has black marker on it). The dop can be rotated (indexed). The the black vertical piece is a protractor so the angle at which the dop meets the flat lap can be changed.
The dop with the stone can be rotated to whatever angle.dop .
The dop is 1/4†alum that is held in the quill by a knurled nut at the opposite end from the stone. This machine has a rheostat to adjust the speed; it also has a forward and reverse.
I have a second which I use along with a dual angle to sharpen gravers.

There are lots of inventive people on this forum so I have a problem to pose.
The quill through which the 1/4 ‘ dop passes is hollow. What I’m trying to figure out is how to hold a graver blank in this handpiece. I didn’t go through this process before since I already had a dual angle sharpening fixture which I place on the platform.

Weldon E. Lister Jnr. wrote a two part article on sculpting scrollwork beginning with issue 78 of “The Engraver†in which he described “chislets†and punches. They were used in Phillipe Grifinee’s grand master’s class.

I want to start with 3 mm square drill rod to make similar tools probably smaller to work on a small scale for sculpting scrollwork and also chasing and repoussé.

Many tools are needed even the same shape would require three sizes, maybe more. So, if I could hold the square stock in the handpiece I could perform the taper and then hand finish the face. Maybe some form of collet?

I have a lapidary arbor with 8†x 1.5†wheels with grits from 80 to 8,000 to do the finishing. Without a way to perform this would be a very long job.

Any and all suggestions gratefully received.

Kevin P.

 

[airamp]

Hi Kevin P.,

What you have there is a raytec machine. Very good since you can pick up the holder and inspect the graver you are grinding.

I use a ultratech and have perfected grinding gravers with this machine you can to.

You will be able to grind any angle you can think of with it. You have to use the correct index wheel (I use a 120) and be able to use the cheater to get super accurate (.1 of a degree) with a little practice it is not too bad to get used to.

I did a tutor on sharpening using a faceting machine so here is the link.

http://www.handengravingforum.com/showthread.php?t=1620&highlight=faceting+machine



I have since improved on tecnique but this should get you started and give you insite on holding gravers. (I will be soon releasing a great advance to the holding of gravers in a machine like this but the tutor will get you by).

Here is another link that discusses a heal drag problem that turned out to be grinding the heel had to be done on a extra fine arkansas stone rather than a ceramic with diamond (get a perfect heel with the stone and the diamond on a ceramic has a tendency to ball up and gall the heel (but you cannot see it until you cut with the graver!!!)

http://www.handengravingforum.com/showthread.php?t=2280&highlight=faceting+machine

Hope this helps

AirAmp:yes

 

[Peter E]

One thing I would suggest that will cut down drastically on your grinding time is to look in the tips section and find John B's post on how to make gravers from 6" long 1/16" carbide aircraft drills.

Once you get used to it, your faceting machine has the capability to sharpen gravers precisely.

 

[Kevin P.]

AirAmp I think you've misunderstood what I said in my posting. I've been using this machine for thirty years and have cut everything but diamond on it.
What you say in your link is not relevant in this case. I don't want to use an ultratec. I know how to grind and polish a graver. I want to how how to adapt the handpiece to hold 3 mm sq stock. to preform.
Kevin P.

 

[Kevin P.]

Peter
I didn't ask how to make gravers from aircraft drills. I asked how to adapt this RayTech handpiece to hold 3 mm sq stock.
John B is describing how to grind a parallel heel graver. I know how to do that.
I've been using this machine for some thirty years. I know what its capabilities are.
I spent a great deal of time composing my post to word it carefully enough to make my question clear. I guess I didn't succeed; but thank you for your attempt.
Kevin P.

 

[monk]

if i understand: you want a3 mm square piece of graver stock to be inserted into a piece of round stock to fit the hollow of your dop tube holder? get some 3mm square, hard tool steel bar of the required length. get some very fine french casting sand and try to cast a softer, lower melting point metal, or even plastic resin around it of the id of the dop tube.when it cools off, gently tap the tool steel pattern out and you have a round holder with a square shaft hole in it.
faster--- try fiddling with some of the thermoloc stuff. sounds hokey, may work. finish it off with very smooth files or whatever. be sure to coat the square bar with vaseline , talcum, or something to allow the thermoloc to not permanently adhere to it.

 

[Kevin P.]

That's close Monk. I want to be able to secure the 3 mm sq stock within the quill (dop tube holder). I was hoping for a collet solution so that the stock can be extended perhaps an inch to grind a taper on the stock using a diamond flat lap.
There is that metal that melts at a low temp the name escapes me at the moment that could do what you suggest and the thermoloc could work
As I go through this I realize I may be making this more complicated than it need be.
I could make a jig and just set it on the faceter table to cut the taper. The majority of the work on these tools, 'chislets' and punches will have to be free hand.
The more exotic tools where the three axes are necessary would need something like the handpiece maybe with an adapter chuck that's used to handle small drills.
This has been helpful to think it through Monk. At least now I know how to taper all that stock for 'chislets and punches. To perform the stock on a flat diamond lap will be much faster than any alternative I can think of. I have lots of diamond laps of different grit sizes that are no longer useful for stone, but work well for drill stock.
Thanks for your help.
Kevin P.

 

[airamp]

Keven P,

Well I am glad you know how to use your raytec.

There is no difference in the 1/4 inch dops used on the raytec or the ultratec They are 1/4 inch!!! SOOOOOO

If you read the tread completely it tells you that you can use a starret pin vise from a pin vise set that can be filed down (on a drill by chucking the pin vise in and holding a file to it to get the 1/4 in diameter you need to fit your raytec and also hold your 3mm sq. stock.

You don't even have to read it just look at the pictures (close up of the chuck mounted in the Ultratec.)
You can also use a a pin vise from india (that takes a 3mm sq) from ebay for a wopping $6.00 that works well also, (but that was in the tread also but you have to read that).

Maybe you misusnderstand we are trying to help!!!

Yes it is frustrating to try to hold square stock accurately in a faceting machine, but it can be done easily with the above chucks.

Accurately is a different story but this should solve your problem. Now that you can hold the stock with the above chucks you can accurately grind based on your skill and experence.

Monks suggestions are also good if you try them.

Peter's suggestions to use carbide drills to make small gravers (now that you can hold and grind them super accurately (With the chucks discribed or pictured) you can move forward.



AirAmp

 

[Kevin P.]

Air Amp My apologies if I got testy. I know you were offering hell
I've already broken my lenten resolution: to be as generous to people as I am to animals.
I am not a practicing anything; I try to take the best bits from every persuasion.
Kevin P.

 

[Kevin P.]

Scott I was talking to myself in my head. When one tries to explain to another then the shortcomings of the plan become apparent.
But it's not as goofy as it might seem if you know this particular machine. It's unlike any other.
Kevin P.

 

[DanM]

Access to a milling machine and a little machnist knowledge would be helpful.Basically a 3mm groove would need to be ground 180 degrees from the keyed pin on the dop .Then some type of locking collet for the 3mm square blank for repeatability.Simple concept ,but a knowledge of machinist techniques would be helpful. There are other faceting machines beside the Raytech which use a platform based handpiece,the Vargus style and Imashi.

 

[Kevin P.]

The handpiece has a collar right at the very end (lap side). I know the guy who took over Raytech faceting machines. I'm going to contact him to see if that collar could be replaced with a collar with a 3 mm opening and a set screw to hold the stock.
My idea was to get about a 25 mm length itaper on these essentially minature chasing/repousse tools before hand finishing the face.
Thanks for the input.
Kevin P.

 

[monk]

kevin: i have a batch of that metal if you're interested.
jayismonk450@gmail.com or 724-328-4951 till1 am east time. it will nearly melt in boiling water i think. i aint fiddled with it for years. get in touch, if you want to give it a whack.

 

[Kevin P.]

Scott's posting seems to have diaappeared.

 

[rocketpilot]

Kevin: just get a piece of steel 1/4" round and drill a hole (using a lathe or mill to get it centered and straight) into the end. the diameter of the hole would be equal to the dimension across the corners of your square bit. the bit would fit into the hole somewhat snug and would be retained by a set screw throught the wall of the steel rod and bearing onto one of the flats of the bit. i think only one 8-32 set screw (or maybe 6-32) would work fine. the steel rod could be retained into the fixture in place of the 1/4" dop. i think the tool bit would re-index each time if the steel rod was not removed from the index head. you could also modify a pin vise and attach it to the end of the rod as others have suggested but it would be tricky to cut a square into the jaws designed to hold round drills. x-acto co. makes handles to hold blades for hobby use. some of their collets are aluminum with four jaws and come in various sizes. you could drill down through the aluminum collet with a drill bit just under the size of the distance across the flats of your square graver. close the collet down onto 4 little pieces of sheet metal inserted into the slots of the collet when you are drilling. put the collet under your stereoscope and file out the round hole square keeping the little pieces of sheet metal in place. when done remove the pieces of sheet metal and the collet should grip down onto your graver just fine. as was mentioned above, you would have to add a pin or key way to keep the collet from turning and losing your index angle each time the collet was opened.
craig

 

[Kevin P.]

Thanks Monk. I might take you up on that offer. I'm still in process of thinking it through and incorporating all the suggestions.
I have to finish a piece of jewelry that's long overdue. And the customer paid in full.
Kevin P.

 

[Kevin P.]

Wow! I'll have to pull out my Unimat-SL DB 200.
Craig Thanks for you carefully thought out plan. I'm going to reread it after my nap.

I've gotten so much input that's helpful
Kevin P.

 

[monk]

that low melt stuff in concert with what the rocket man said might just thread your needle, dude.

 

[jimzim75]

Just a question.
Couldn't you buy a dual angle fixture from GRS? Use the housing of the facet machine as the platform to rest the stand on, and lower the splash shield on one side?

Trying to use the faceting head seems to be a lot of work.

 

[Kevin P.]

Jim, you're right. And I mentioned that I use a dual angle with the faceter in a previous post.
I have some exotic plans which would take way too long to explain. If I took the time to spill out everything in my head, I'd never do any engraving.
If this crazy scheme works out, sometime in the future I will post the results and also how I'm using the device. I'm also a 'rube goldberg' kind of guy; I love fiddling with things.
Kevin P.