Engraving fees:

[Mike Cirelli]

Ray I'm glad you brought that up. I think a lot of times we don’t educate the customer. If you're getting a bid from say a roofer or home remodeler they don't "say ya we can do that with no problem". They'll say we have to do this and that and go around this, hum, it's not going to be easy but we're the ones for the job. They may go as far as describing the different nails they may need to use. I think by accessing everything that needs done or will be done to the customer and showing them it's not so easy and it takes great skill to accomplish what they want, gives them a better sense of value to the work that’s going to be done. Like you said Ray those people watching you had no idea how long it takes. That's an excellent reason why the consumer should not dictate your price. Unless you convey it to them in some manor they don't know nor will they know what is giving the work value. There are a lot of people out there that think we have a magic box, in it goes out its done.
Mike

 

[jimzim75]

Re: Engraving Fees

Hi All,
I thought since we have the resource of being able to post on this
chat line we could have a real forum. We can actually pull apart a few
jobs and discuss prices.
I have one of my old jobs that might due to look at. This is a job
from 2002, where I was subcontracting the engraving work form a larger
company. These are the prices as I remember them, my prices have
increased since then. To set the stage because that is important in
determining price. The Job was done in Metro Detroit area.
The customer was the wife of a professional sport figure.
The job that was requested was to be of a medium quality.
That means the scrolls were to be simplified and not overly complex.
The florentining was to be quickly done, rather than to look like a satin
pillow. The total time require was around a week, but it could have taken
two and half if the budget would have allowed. Part of the reason for
not taking the full amount of time is that such jobs are like the
800 pound gorilla. They tend to throw off the schedule for everything else.
The other half is what the customer requested.
So what do you think about the prices? Taking into account; it was
2002, I was trying to become established, and where the job was located.
It doesn't sound like it should be a factor, but with 300 other Jewellery
companies in the Detroit are it is an issue.
I would like to see other of the group put forward there work for
analyses. Since we are so far apart there shouldn't be problem
with letting go of to many secrets. This a teaching forum and a place
for engraver to discus issues of interest. You could say we were conspiring
and you would be right, but whose side are you on. The underpaid engravers or
the public?
Jim

Jim Zimmerman
Alpine Custom Jewellers & Repair
http://www.handengravingcanada.com

 

[Mike Cirelli]

This is like the price is right. Do I win a trip if I get the closest. Just kidding.
Looks to me at a quick est. around 3400 retail. Labor and each plate being aprx12mm. does not include gold in the brac., does include the wg plates soldered and setting stone, casting, engraving. This was quick not knowing the size of stones, and I figure 13 stones. It should be close.
By the way it looks like a very nice bracelet. Are the stones Ruby?
Mike

 

[jimzim75]

Re:Engraving Fees

Hi Mike,
The small stones were one carat chocolate Diamonds, the center was
one and half carat chocolate diamond.
The white metal was platinum, the yellow was 18k. The was 2 oz. of yellow
at 2002 price of $350.00/oz.
I was only contracted to do the engraving and diamond setting.
The fabrication was done by someone else.
My take was around $1200.00 for the job. The piece actually sold for
over $50000.00
At the time, I was very happy to get the job. That much engraving was a
treat.
Jim

Jim Zimmerman
Alpine Custom Jewellers & Repair
www.handengravingcanada.com

 

[Mike Cirelli]

I was figuring 14kt white. Platinum would be much more especially now.
Mike

 

[fcuder]

excerpt from a book

"It is a strange fact that the highly skilled craftsman very often underestimates his own knowledge and skill and demands and recieves too little for his work. This is because there are so many one-man engraving busnisses where the engraver has to collect his own work, engrave it, invoice it and deliver it back to the customer, who on receipt of the article invariably tells the engraver that he has charged too much. The engraver, who is certainly no business man and probably suffers from a strong inferiority complex, whises heartily that he was back in the homely atmosphere of his workshop, and agrees hastily to reduce the cost, beating a retreat out of the store."
ENGRAVING ON PRECIOUS METALS by A. Brittain and P. Morton
first edition 1958

Thanks Sam for your web and this forum, and hello to All.
Fernando, Spain

 

[DaveH]

I ran across this series of posts on page 83 of the forum, from a year and a half ago. Seeing as how there seems to be so many new engravers, including me, on here, I decided to bring it to the forefront again to help us out with what really seems to be one of the most difficult questions around, next to image transferring issues...

 

[Ron Smith]

Right on, Ride on Ray. You hit the nail on the head and the best way to overcome this ignorance is to educate everyone you can. I did the same thing early in my career. I went to shows, worked on the spot, and people went away not believing that they saw me do that with my bare hands. They don't have a clue when it comes to hand wrought items, and when your clients are the general population, they don't have the money either, so you must expose your work to clients that can afford you, and in the meantime develope your name into a household word. This all takes time, and is relative to your own needs. Do you need a volume of work? Do you need to make more money for your time? Does your work qualify for better prices, and can you do it quickly and effeciently and professionally? Do you have any competition in your area? It all seems glorious to the beginnier, but it takes a lot of hard work, and you have to be able to walk right into the fire and endure it all.

There is a lot more to doing your own thing than most people think, but most retail businesses make their money on sales, and unless you do this too, you are working strictly on the very small profit margine (wholesale and volume work) that you can make by hand. If you have a retail market, you can keystone your labor like any other retail store, and then the question becomes, do you have the quality of client that matches the quality of your work?

I think there-in lies the rub. If you need volume, go to the general public but don't do masterpieces for them. Give them a product adequate for their understanding, but teach them all the while. Show them the posibilities and how your work is done, and what you are capable of doing, and then just maybe you can get that client who can afford you because you have impressed them, and I guarentee you will. The general public is pretty forgiving. The coneseurs aren't, and the size of that market shrinks as you go higher, so the need for volume decreases and the need for perfection increases.

It is true that most people are very respectful of your talents and mezmerized by them, but you have to educate them. That helps us all as engravers, and then maybe our culture will make space for the artists that we are. I can remember the times when that was not even possible.

I can remember the countless times that I took my block out front, set it on the counter, and did a nice script letter from start to finish on scrap, just for the oportunity to inlighten the client. That is one reason we all are enjoying better prices today. many of us have done that same thing. Educate, educate, educate.

Write articles that are interesting and give them to local journalists. Invite them into your shop. You might be surprised at the reception you will get. Do things that will get you into the right public, because if you charge more than you are worth, you will lose your business, so relativity always plays a roll in creativity just like in anything else. Of course these promotion things take time too, and should be a part of your self promotion, but excellent work speaks for itself. It just has to be recognized by the right people, and they usually aren't stupid. They rely a lot on name recognition however, so that is a very important priority too.

We are teaching people how to engrave, sometimes exasterbating the problems that business would require, due to some of the slowing techniques of today, but we are not teaching them how to survive and thrive. Beginners are at the survival level, and we must relate to them in their own invironment and conditions. You cannot avoid working your way up. Frustrating I know, but that is what seperates the men from the boys................Endurance!

Engraving is being compared to other businesses, and it is not like them at all. Sales and labor are two different beasts and even though retail tries to beat the craftsmen down, you cannot blame them for what you let them do to you (a good life realization in conjunction with good judgment). Engraving is also not a necessity, but a luxury, one of the reasons that the plumer, doctor, lawyer, can exploit the market. So I agree with Sam and Jim in that regard. Figure out what a fair price for you is, and stick to your guns. Then work on the quality of your clients.

One of the great differences in an engraving business (or any other hand oriented craft) and retail is that they usually develope a clientelle and keep it. The engraver must be very flexible cause the bar keeps changing particularly if you are going to get better in your work. You often have to leave the clients you have worked hard to develope behind in search of new ones. Retail business can retain their clients as they aren't many variables in what they do. The have a set, known product, mass produced, they know what it will cost, and they can mark up the production costs. All they have to do is sell the stuff!!!! So I would caution anyone trying to compare the dynamics of the two and lump them all into common business practices. They aren't even closely related. All of the enduring engravers have come through this process and I don't think it will ever change, except for the learning curve. It will get better, and it will be economically feasable, but that is about it. The big prices come later on if you have played your cards right.

Forward!!!
Ron S

 

[Ron Smith]

Just call me blabbermouth. I do ramble on....................

 

[Weldon47]

Well said, Ron!!

Weldon

 

[Tim Wells]

Hey Sam,
This is all priceless (no pun intended) information. What do you think about making it a sticky of sorts and add it to the tips section for posterity?

 

[joseph engraver]

And that is the plane truth,Ron you have such a way with words