Question: Engraving/ color case hardening final finish

[MICHAEL]

I've been (CCH) my engraved practice plates for the last year along with various low carbon steel at a final finish of 100-400. I've found best results to be at a 220 finish. I have a set of Uberti model P's prepped. Parts to be CCH are prepped at 220 finish. My plan is after engraving to lightly go over parts with 220 grit in final direction. I have people that do CCH to help me but they have never done an engraved gun before. Just thought I would check with ya'll first. I'd rather learn from someone else's mistakes. I'm going to nitre blue the other parts. Also looking for info on a good coating for CCH like epoxy to keep colors from fading due to sun /oils or if I should even be concerned with that? Looking forward to and appreciate the help I've always got here!

 

[Beathard]

Ubertis are not CCH. They are jus CC. They are not hardened. If you sand on it the color will go away. I would remove the finish and polish to the desired grit. I would then engrave it. Then the gun needs to be refinished. You can go to CCH at that point or blue or nickel or french gey or ...

 

[MICHAEL]

Beathard, they are already prepped. In fact I'm engraving the cylinders at present. Just looking for any info or hard earned lessons that someone may like to share. I thought some of the long rifle builders might like to share some of their knowledge.

 

[Ed Westerly]

CCH on practice plates is a long way from CCH on a gun frame. There is a good chance of warping the frame, so it needs to have blocks made to fit all openings and give support to the frame while in the furnace. If you have the least concern that you don't know what you are doing, it would be better to send the gun to someone with experience. IMHO

 

[Beathard]

I have engraved and CCH several ubertis, winchesters and Colts. I'd love to help you but I have no idea what specifically you are asking. If it is how to protect the colors, I use renaissance wax.

 

[MICHAEL]

I appreciate the responses. I have people experienced in CCH helping me and one will be present when I CCH the frames/hammers. They have not CCH engraved firearms. I'm most concerned with prepping to only 220 then taking 220 over my engraving. I know a picture is worth a thousand words but I only have an Apple iPhone and cannot load pictures. I have some pictures under my profile of the style i do (uploaded before the computer crashed), if that will help someone answer my question, which is ,anyone who does CCH of engraved firearms, are their any tips or hard earned lessons that you would like to share? Any special considerations before engraving, concerning the preparation?

 

[Beathard]

I take mine to a 400 grit and do not sand the engraving after it is shaded.

 

[MICHAEL]

Beathard, I appreciate that info. That is what I was looking for. Engravers with first hand knowledge of how the engraving looks with final finish on CCH firearms. I was toying with the idea of trying 320, 360, or 400 finish. Also wondered if anyone has tried one of those grits on a loose muslin wheel. I like the nice satin finish but don't have any experience of how it looks on CCH firearm? Anyone ever tried this?

 

[Beathard]

I try to stay away from soft wheels. I do use a felt wheel sometimes. A soft wheel will go down into the screw holes causing them to round into ovals. If used over an edge the edges will round. Extreme care is needed with a wheel to keep your nice sharp edges. It doesn't take more than a second for things to go very wrong under power.

 

[MICHAEL]

Beathard, I agree with your advice on the wheels. I've been practicing on them for 5 years with help from people who know how to use them and use them every day. Just this week made one of them mad ( he had an "I'm proud of you" smile on his face) at me, for getting a better mirror finish than he could do. I've been very lucky to have mentors in every area of firearms from engraving, gunsmithing, machinist work, prep/ polishing, nitre/ Belgian blueing, tig welding, even leather carving and holster making. People like Jerry Harper, Curly Bill Kelly, Ron Snover, and Julian Morrison have given their time and knowledge freely just as I'm grateful for all of you here, I am grateful bro them also.
P.S. I also use felt wheels. Soft with 500 grit, medium felt black 555, hard felt gray 555, white 555 on hard felt, then all blended carefully with 555 white on loose Muslim, taking care as you say to stay away from all edges and screw holes. All previous work before final polish is done with automotive sandpapers wrapped around a machined block for flats or shaped dowels for flutes and rubber eraser for barrel ( I alternate with shoe shine method). I only mention this because I remember the hard time I had finding the info and or the people to help when I was starting out.

 

[MICHAEL]

Beathard, I forgot to ask you if you can leave the Renaissance wax on when firing the gun? I thought it was just for long term storage.

 

[Beathard]

I compete in SASS with a french grey uberti with ren wax. Havent had an issue yet.

 

[rrupp]

Michael as Beathard said take the metal to 400 by hand, engrave, shade then go to the charcoal. In my experience if you drive compound into the metal pours it will give you more blue than any other color no matter what your mixture is. There is an excellent article I believe from 1999 in the double gun journal on CCH and he as very good examples of blocking a frame although it is a side by side the process is the same. Plus the blocking helps hold the charcoal to the part as it is dumped. Good luck because you will get results but you never know what they are going to be until you take it out of the water.

 

[jerrywh]

Whoever case hardens the frame on the gun needs to have blocks for that action or you might have a problem with warping. The best coating I have found is the baking lacquer from Brownel's. I polish to 1000 grit for case hardening. To each his own. Some of the professional case hardening companies quench at a low temp for better colors and less warping but the case is not very hard. I would not case harden a cylinder or a barrel for liability. It can make the whole thing glass hard clear through. You probably already know that but some don't. You can niter blue anything without much danger. I only use a polishing wheel for a very light touch. Just to get the finish even in one direction. A fine scotch pad is better. I do all my own case hardening except for actions that need blocking.

 

[mtlctr]

Beathard, they are already prepped. In fact I'm engraving the cylinders at present. Just looking for any info or hard earned lessons that someone may like to share. I thought some of the long rifle builders might like to share some of their knowledge.

another option that involves no heat is rust blue. absoulutely beautiful if done correctly. it is a process that cannot be rushed. after engraving, clean the parts with soap & water then acetatone you will apply the rust blue with ( i like diaper flannel) or cotton ball in one coat with no scrubbing & no going over what's been done. I don't use a humidity box, up here in NW ohio we just about always have humidity. 70% or higher is good the higher the better. hang the parts on wire hangers and.................wait till you see an even coat of fine rust develop. then wipe off the rust (carding) and re-apply the acid. 5-6 coats outta do er'. when the rust looks even when wet you can use rubbing alcohol to judge this it dries faster but plain water can be used get a non-reative vessel (stainless steel) going with boiling water an immerse the parts in a few minutes what was brown will be a dark blackish blue. In the past most fine double barrel shotguns got this treatment. there is a wealth of info on the net also. You will hear some say you must do the boiling water thing after every coat I never have but you MUST card the parts carefully to remove the rust to keep it from pitting. Pitting would occur if you would be negligent and not remove the fine rust and wash with water after each coat but just let the acid "eat away". I know, this might scare you it did me but I tried it anyway on an engraved flintlock plate. it came out fine & it is a durable finish. as for the R.wax it is applied very thinnly and should affect nothing imho. as an aside, if you chose not to dip in boiling water the result would be a rich chocolate brown which is what many ML barrels get this treatment. hope this helps. and lets see pic's when you are done or even before . i had a Colt re-issue 1860 Army & a squareback 51' Navy which my son owns now. good luck.:hammer:

 

[MICHAEL]

mtlctr and everyone who has responded, thank you. I have been nitre blueing and Belgian blueing already. In the next week or so will CCH a 49 pocket pistol / an 1860 Army, both reproductions and the arbors are removed. Those guns have a finish to 2000 grit. The final finish on those guns will be 220-400. Will Nickle plate the arbors also. Sorry about pics. Unless someone can explain to me how to load pics to the forum from my iPhone. A computer is not in the budget at present. Or really needed aside from posting pics. I plan on getting a Mac, just not in a hurry. Thx again!

 

[Beathard]

Are you using tapatalk. It makes the.photo upload simple.

 

[MICHAEL]

No tapatalk but can I upload pics with it with only iPhone? No pc.