English style practice

[Eric Olson]

I've been reading my Ron Smith book to inspire me to do more practice plates. Here's my try at English style. Doing it over I'd choose to put a single scroll in the center. I always liked the effect of the un-engraved diamond shape so I thought I'd give it a try. Any suggestions on shading the "knobs" would be appreciated. Thanks!

 

[celticjohn]

Eric,
Looks great. I must get that Ron Smith book. Scrollwork isn't one of my strong points

Well done

 

[mdengraver]

Eric, that Ron Smith book "Advanced Drawing of Scrolls" isn't only a beautiful book in its' own right but it also is a great reference and source of inspiration. Ron also shares eloquently his philosopy on art/engraving/life all at the same time. One can go back to this book over and over again and continue to learn something of value, whether it be living your life with meaning and integrity, or just learning how to be more creative for personal joy and satisfaction.

 

[bram ramon]

Martens is a super engraver who masters the art of english scroll, have a closer look at his work you can learn a lot of it;http://www.engraverscafe.com/showthread.php?9047-gun-engraving

 

[Red Green]

Wow you just sold me, I had no idea it was a philosophy book. Its cover and sales spiel has the usual noncommittal promises about scrolls.

Bob

 

[Marrinan]

beautiful practice plate! The only suggestion I might offer would be to study the outside work. A bit of a roll in the wrist might add to the over-all character of the whole effect. Fred

 

[monk]

i'd leave itt as it is. kooks fine to me.

 

[Marcus Hunt]

I'm probably going to get told off for this but as you asked for suggestions about shading the knobs I've gone a stage further in order to try and help you. Moderators please give this a chance.

I'm sorry Eric, I have to disagree with the others - this is not good English scroll at all and it does not look great! Now, I could leave you with the "attaboy's" and that would do you no good at all. All this was covered years ago but in brief (as I have to get to work):

1) All scrollwork must have a point of origin, i.e. somewhere it starts to grow from. This can be an edge but with a central panel there should be a 'starter' scroll.

2) If your design is based on English small scroll then it is vastly over shaded. BUT as you can fit all this shading in it must be based on the larger form in which case there should be separation between the leaves and tendrils. This is achieved by cutting away of the background. Horrible donkeywork but it needs to be done in order to achieve the proper effect.

3) As best you can, your design should have the scrolls a) growing correctly - which for the most part you have, and b) they should touch one another and not leave awkward gaps that means you either have to stretch the scrolls to fit the pattern or you have to fill the gap with something, somehow which upsets the design aesthetic.

4) The "outside work" is NOT just a cut line. It is a kind of filigree of tendrils which grow off of the scroll in the same way as a scroll would. It is there to even up and soften the edge of the design.

Sorry to go on, but this is a bit of a passion of mine and when people who really know nothing about the subject start chiming in with " That's great!" or "Super work" it really gets to me. It doesn't do you, the person who cut it any good as you have noway of determining what to do to improve your work. You think you're doing fine when in fact your not at all.

Believe me, if you want to cut English scroll you have the ability Eric, (I can see that in your cutting) BUT now you just need to acquire the knowledge of how to design, form and cut the style well. There's much more to the simple English scroll than meets the eye. In my opinion, EVERY engraver should learn this style as from it you can develop anything else you want to scroll wise because it teaches balance within a design and how scrolls should grow correctly. This then carries through into acanthus, etc.

This is not meant to run you down Eric but to point you in the right direction. If someone with my experience of this style said "You're doing great," then not only you but countless others would think that what you are doing is correct. I am being honest and trying to put you on the right track so you can improve your work standard and hopefully continue a tradition.

Here's some traditional English large scroll

This is the English fine (small scroll) variety

And this is a traditional small/medium scroll which English fine developed from

It's worth remembering that English scroll is meant to be seen with the naked eye and it gives an overall effect when it is blown up photographically it can look a bit crude or basic but that is not how it's meant to be seen.

Good luck Eric, as I say, with a bit of guidance you'd be well on your way to cutting some nice English scrollwork.

 

[JJ Roberts]

Marcus,What ever happened to the DVD on English scrolls you were going to do? J.J.

 

[mitch]

...now you just need to acquire the knowledge of how to design, form and cut the style well. There's much more to the simple English scroll than meets the eye. In my opinion, EVERY engraver should learn this style as from it you can develop anything else you want to scroll wise because it teaches balance within a design and how scrolls should grow correctly. This then carries through into acanthus, etc.

Hear, hear!

 

[Doc Mark]

Yes Marcus, what did happen to your instructional video and book? We've been waiting for a LONG time to see it released!

 

[Haraga.com]

These words of Marcus' are so true for so many other engravings as well. The Attaboys do nothing but delay the learning process. Assuming that person has a desire to learn.

I'm sorry Eric, I have to disagree with the others - this is not good English scroll at all and it does not look great! Now, I could leave you with the "attaboy's" and that would do you no good at all.

Sorry to go on, but this is a bit of a passion of mine and when people who really know nothing about the subject start chiming in with " That's great!" or "Super work" it really gets to me. It doesn't do you, the person who cut it any good as you have noway of determining what to do to improve your work. You think you're doing fine when in fact your not at all.

This is not meant to run you down Eric but to point you in the right direction. If someone with my experience of this style said "You're doing great," then not only you but countless others would think that what you are doing is correct. I am being honest and trying to put you on the right track so you can improve your work standard and hopefully continue a tradition.
[/QUOTE]

 

[Eric Olson]

Thanks for the critique - I can handle it! I did learn from this project what problems those awkward gaps cause, and also that my leaves didn't "curl" enough. It's my first try and I'm sure my second will be much better. I appreciate the time you took to respond - I like the photos.

 

[Southern Custom]

Many thanks to Eric for the post and to Marcus for the honest response. Those of us who take this stuff seriously are greatly benefited by this information. Many of us are working in a vacuum and it is only by honest critique and exchange of information that we improve our work and expand our repetoire. Thanks to both of you for taking the time to do this. I've been putting off English scroll for awhile now and it seems like a good time to tackle it.

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Hi guys, "critique" can be a touchy subject and has caused some abrasions in the past. This is why sometimes we have to read between the lines and give an honest and helpful critique. I had been engraving for over 20 years and taking my engravings to show my father before he finally just said "tThat's good!". Every single time before that he'd find something to criticise and to be honest, it was bloody hard to take at times! But I knew he was only wanting to make me a better engraver.

Now I'm not going to pounce on every single bit of engraving I see that could benefit from critique, I just don't have the time. But if something is going way off beam, personally, I think something should be said. So if you'd like critique ("attaboy" does not qualify) please press the critique request button. By the way, if you ever see me giving an "attaboy" to someone take it from me it's very good engraving!

Why do I want to see better engraving out there? Because I've always felt that if we produce better stuff the public will see it, want it and then buy it.

 

[Marcus Hunt]

As for my video and book, Lord knows what happened! GRS have the video and manuscript. Perhaps if you guys write to them asking where is it they'll finally get their act together and release it. I developed it as a kit but have heard nothing from GRS in a LOOOOOONNNNGGG time!!! You can probably imagine how P***ED I am about it because it took a lot of time and effort on my part and they've given up on their part of the deal.

 

[Gemsetterchris]

Must be 3 years since you mentioned working on that book...someone needs to start pulling some strings.
I`ve sent my complaint to them..

 

[JJ Roberts]

Marcus,I call GRS on Friday and talked with salesman Otis Moon and he told me they never received any video or manuscript from you.You may want to call them. J.J.

 

[Marcus Hunt]

JJ, Otis is incorrect. They have had it and indeed I am now in negotiation with GRS about it. They are being very generous about it as they would like to see me release it. I am currently re- editing the book and hope to have it ready for print very soon. The DVD might take slightly longer but hopefully within the next couple of months it will all be sorted.