armcarve
Member
Does anyone know if Duronze can be engraved? It is an aluminum-bronze alloy. Any information will be appreciated. Thanks.
Amy
Amy
Question: Duronze
- Thread starter armcarve
- Start date
Zhyyra
Elite Cafe Member
Can't see why not Amy.
Copper can be engraved and so can aluminium. Bronze is an alloy of copper and most commonly tin. Tin is hard and the amount added to copper to make bronze will determine the hardness of the bronze. Adding aluminium to the bronze will give you Duronze. Aluminium will soften the alloy. So, I suppose its down to the amount of tin in the mix. I doubt enough tin is ever added to make it too hard to engrave.
Duronze is machinable and therefore should be engravable.
Copper can be engraved and so can aluminium. Bronze is an alloy of copper and most commonly tin. Tin is hard and the amount added to copper to make bronze will determine the hardness of the bronze. Adding aluminium to the bronze will give you Duronze. Aluminium will soften the alloy. So, I suppose its down to the amount of tin in the mix. I doubt enough tin is ever added to make it too hard to engrave.
Duronze is machinable and therefore should be engravable.
AndrosCreations
Elite Cafe Member
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Hi Amy!
I just wanted to convey something that's related to your post, though I wish I knew more about Duronze specifically. I know you're into metalsmithing too so please excuse me if some of this information is already understood.
Just because two metal elements are soft and maliable in their isolated forms, doesn't mean they'll be just as soft when combined. Pure silver and pure copper are very soft independently but when combined, they make an alloy that is stronger than the sum of the two... though still soft.
I remember a set of wedding bands I had to create in 14k white (palladium). Gold and Palladium... independently are VERY soft... but the resulting alloy proved to be a pain in the neck. I had the bands cast at a very well known casting house... The waxes I had carved were just a little smaller than the final ring size (maybe a quarter size off)... So I called the casting house and inquired as to what the annealing procedures were as I intended to stretch them just a tad on the ring stretcher. The casting house had no clue... In short... both bands were shattered by the time I was done. The alloy was as hard as glass after I used typical white gold (nickel) annealing procedures. I had to have them recast and made sure they would be the exact size right out of the cast. I will never mess with 14k Palladium white again. :beat up:
The alloy you mentioned (Duronze) sounded similar to the purple gold alloy. As for aluminum, when a small amount is added to gold (as in the making of purple gold)... it creates an alloy that is as hard as glass. There is a jeweler in Africa that takes this purple gold and cuts it on a faceting machine (that's how hard it is!). Independently, aluminum and gold are as maliable as can be... together... they're like a rock. I'm just saying that the addition of aluminum to a soft metal could possibly make an un-engravable alloy.
Here are the words from the Jeweler himself about the purple gold:
Firstly, purple gold is not malleable. It cannot be mechanically deformed, bent or stretched in any way in the manner that 'normal' gold can. When the gold is made it contains an alloy of more or less 75-80% fine gold and 20-25% aluminum. These are melted under an inert atmosphere, or in a vacuum oven. The result is known as an 'inter metallic compound". In the paper of the world gold council found at: http://www.gold.org/jewellery/technology/colours/special.html they say that PG tarnishes easily. I have found this to be untrue. It does tarnish, but only as fast as 18kt. yellow gold. Basically, if you work in PG you will treat is as a gemstone. All my jewellery that I have made, I have treated the material as such. See: Faceted Purple Gold
Just something to ponder. :big grin:
-Andy
I just wanted to convey something that's related to your post, though I wish I knew more about Duronze specifically. I know you're into metalsmithing too so please excuse me if some of this information is already understood.
Just because two metal elements are soft and maliable in their isolated forms, doesn't mean they'll be just as soft when combined. Pure silver and pure copper are very soft independently but when combined, they make an alloy that is stronger than the sum of the two... though still soft.
I remember a set of wedding bands I had to create in 14k white (palladium). Gold and Palladium... independently are VERY soft... but the resulting alloy proved to be a pain in the neck. I had the bands cast at a very well known casting house... The waxes I had carved were just a little smaller than the final ring size (maybe a quarter size off)... So I called the casting house and inquired as to what the annealing procedures were as I intended to stretch them just a tad on the ring stretcher. The casting house had no clue... In short... both bands were shattered by the time I was done. The alloy was as hard as glass after I used typical white gold (nickel) annealing procedures. I had to have them recast and made sure they would be the exact size right out of the cast. I will never mess with 14k Palladium white again. :beat up:
The alloy you mentioned (Duronze) sounded similar to the purple gold alloy. As for aluminum, when a small amount is added to gold (as in the making of purple gold)... it creates an alloy that is as hard as glass. There is a jeweler in Africa that takes this purple gold and cuts it on a faceting machine (that's how hard it is!). Independently, aluminum and gold are as maliable as can be... together... they're like a rock. I'm just saying that the addition of aluminum to a soft metal could possibly make an un-engravable alloy.
Here are the words from the Jeweler himself about the purple gold:
Firstly, purple gold is not malleable. It cannot be mechanically deformed, bent or stretched in any way in the manner that 'normal' gold can. When the gold is made it contains an alloy of more or less 75-80% fine gold and 20-25% aluminum. These are melted under an inert atmosphere, or in a vacuum oven. The result is known as an 'inter metallic compound". In the paper of the world gold council found at: http://www.gold.org/jewellery/technology/colours/special.html they say that PG tarnishes easily. I have found this to be untrue. It does tarnish, but only as fast as 18kt. yellow gold. Basically, if you work in PG you will treat is as a gemstone. All my jewellery that I have made, I have treated the material as such. See: Faceted Purple Gold
Just something to ponder. :big grin:
-Andy
mitch
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
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- Jul 23, 2007
- Messages
- 2,636
my thoughts fall between Zhyyras' & Andy's- it probably CAN be engraved, but it may not engrave well- and could be bloody awful. depending on what you have planned, i would strongly recommend getting a small sample to play with. if you only need to cut a small initial or some other minimal bit of work you could bravely charge in, but even then i'd try to experiment where it won't show first.
armcarve
Member
Zhyyra, Andy, Mitch,
Thank you very much for your input. I am going to inquire about a sample to engrave. I will post the results.
Thanks again, Amy
Thank you very much for your input. I am going to inquire about a sample to engrave. I will post the results.
Thanks again, Amy
Zhyyra
Elite Cafe Member
After reading Andy's post I decided to do a little research. Indeed the addition of Aluminium will not necessarily soften the alloy so, my apology for being a bit assuming. I stand corrected 
.
A typical grade of aluminium-bronze actually consists of quite a number of elements with the base being copper. e.g:
copper: 91.2 %
zinc 0.5%
lead 0.05%
iron 0.3%
tin 0.2%
silicon 2%
aluminium 7%
manganese 0.1%
nickel 0.25%
asenic 0.15%
I then ventured to find its mechanical properties and discovered that it was indeed a relatively hard material (B90 - B94) comparable to 304 and 316 stainless steel which are B92 and B95 respectively.
However the elongation properties of stainless steel are at about 40 to 45% where the elongation of the duronze is only 22 to 26%. This may tend it to chip-cut rather than to shave-cut.
Being a machinist and curious as to how it would machine I found a picture somewhere and the swarf was akin to chips much like brass or bronze would machine.
Those with experience cutting it seemed to prefer carbide tools to HSS.
So Amy, it may be that you will be attempting to engrave bronze that is as hard as stainless steel. Yikes! I would imagine not the easiest of material. Tool sharpening may be the order of the day.
But hey! nothing ventured, nothing gained.
.A typical grade of aluminium-bronze actually consists of quite a number of elements with the base being copper. e.g:
copper: 91.2 %
zinc 0.5%
lead 0.05%
iron 0.3%
tin 0.2%
silicon 2%
aluminium 7%
manganese 0.1%
nickel 0.25%
asenic 0.15%
I then ventured to find its mechanical properties and discovered that it was indeed a relatively hard material (B90 - B94) comparable to 304 and 316 stainless steel which are B92 and B95 respectively.
However the elongation properties of stainless steel are at about 40 to 45% where the elongation of the duronze is only 22 to 26%. This may tend it to chip-cut rather than to shave-cut.
Being a machinist and curious as to how it would machine I found a picture somewhere and the swarf was akin to chips much like brass or bronze would machine.
Those with experience cutting it seemed to prefer carbide tools to HSS.
So Amy, it may be that you will be attempting to engrave bronze that is as hard as stainless steel. Yikes! I would imagine not the easiest of material. Tool sharpening may be the order of the day.
But hey! nothing ventured, nothing gained
.
AndrosCreations
Elite Cafe Member
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2010
- Messages
- 464
Zhyyra,
It's natural to assume that two really soft malliable metals, when mixed, would make a soft alloy. I made this assumption too before I learned otherwise.
I guess some things about metals are just really perplexing. Here's another weird thing I don't understand...
Pure Silver melting point: 1981 ºF
Pure Copper mltng point: 1761 ºF
Sterling Silver 92.5/7.5: 1640 ºF <--- it's just strange that when you mix the two metals together, you get a melting point that is lower than either of them independently.
The elements are interesting and beyond my comprehension!
It's natural to assume that two really soft malliable metals, when mixed, would make a soft alloy. I made this assumption too before I learned otherwise.
I guess some things about metals are just really perplexing. Here's another weird thing I don't understand...
Pure Silver melting point: 1981 ºF
Pure Copper mltng point: 1761 ºF
Sterling Silver 92.5/7.5: 1640 ºF <--- it's just strange that when you mix the two metals together, you get a melting point that is lower than either of them independently.
The elements are interesting and beyond my comprehension!
Zhyyra
Elite Cafe Member
Thanks for your input Andy,
It seems we never stop learning as long as we live. Of all there is to know, the knowledge that one man can attain in a lifetime is not even a drop in the ocean. And that's not the gloom of it, that's the glory of it.
Our universe is indeed full of wonderful and mysterious elements.
It seems we never stop learning as long as we live. Of all there is to know, the knowledge that one man can attain in a lifetime is not even a drop in the ocean. And that's not the gloom of it, that's the glory of it.
Our universe is indeed full of wonderful and mysterious elements.
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