Drawings

[Miranda Hoffmann]

Hello everyone!!! I have attached some of my drawings for constructive criticism. Please let me know what you think...the first two are the ones I will be engraving soon and the rest are just for fun. (For now.) I figured I'd get some advice before I start cutting that metal... I know there are some elbows and such in there, but I'm not done with them yet. THANK YOU!!!

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Miranda

I like what you have done and I think it shows that you are on the right track. Well done.

With your leaves coming out of the backbone of the scroll.........try getting them to flow (grow) in the same direction as the scroll. At the moment some look to be coming out at almost right angles.

On your first drawing the scrolls to the left have no leaves in them. I think that when (if) you do any background work it will show as a big negative space.

Something that helps me a lot, and it was good advise given to me by John B........ Pencil in the background. Quite often your eye can pick up big blank areas this way.

Have you got Ron Smiths book on Advanced scroll drawing? He can explain it a 1000 times better than me.

Drawing and cutting aren't mutally exclusive to one another. I think that cutting gives you greater insight into the flow of the design and drawing the design gives you a better idea of how it is to be cut. You need to do both alongside each other to gain a better understanding of both.

As beginners we have to say "enough" that's as good as I can do right now and then get down to cutting it. If we waited till we can draw the perfect design we would die of old age.

I think you are heading in the right direction and I'll be keen to see it when finished. With each drawing and cutting you will start gaining a better insight to the whole process and with each project you will get better. Enjoy doing it and be proud of your acheivment.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[JJ Roberts]

Miranda..I truly agree with Andrew on getting Ron Smith's book on Advanced Scrolls..I recommend it to all my students, and encourage them to draw as much as possible, and stay clear of guns and knives and stricly work on practice plates. I know it is a temptation to want to get started in working on guns and knives, but
stick with the practice plates until you get the feel of the tools..and keep working on your drawings, and eventually it will all fall together for you. Keep us posted.

Yours truly,
JJ Roberts
Manassas, VA

 

[KSnyder]

Hi Miranda,
In regards to your drawings , they look to "sketchy or choppy" in other words the lines are not long enough & become ragged. Try moving your lines along further with one stroke and after a while it will be second nature to you and it will clean up alot of the elbows.You pencil looks too soft and the paper looks too rough. For figuring out / sketching designs I like a harder paper like stuff you put in a printer , its smooth and takes the lead good. I like a # 4, 4H, H, & 4B for the work. For laying on over chinese white or a harder 6 thru 9H is the choice.
Andrew & JJ gave you excellent advise on the scroll aspect, they are a couple of the "big dogs" on this forum and really know their stuff so I wont elaborate further.
Your drawing shows much promise you just need to polish up a bit.
hope this helps a bit.
Kent

 

[fegarex]

Miranda,
It looks like you are on your way but I'll give you my 2 cents worth.
I would "simplify" the scroll work a bit. For the lack of a better word, it is a bit busy. I'm guessing that this is some sort of Sharps or other single shot rifle? I would look at "period" engraving and try to emulate that style a bit more. Of course, as others said I would make sre to study both of Ron's books. You'll get a better handle on the leaves and tendril design from them.
This is being picky but I have a couple of other suggestions...
The other side of the gun doesn't "mirror" the first very well. They don't always have to but I think it is better for a beginner to try to keep them somewhat the same. Perhaps use a larger oval on the second side to help this out. And, while it is not a "rule" I would face the buffalo head forward on the first drawing. I just think this looks better.
Hope this helps.

 

[Brian Hochstrat]

Miranda,
One thing that is helpful in drawing is the use of a light table. This enables you to rough sketch an idea and then start refining it down. Take a rough sketch and then trace onto another sheet of paper using the lines you want and drawing in a smooth manner, then you can make more adjustments and trace again. Its not uncommon for me to have 5-10 drafts before it is ready for engraving. The final draft is drawn with a .005 pigma marker. The final draft gets scanned into the computer, scaled down and then printed on a transparency, which will transfer the image to the piece, I am sure you are familiar with the process. The piont is the final drawing needs to be as refined as the engraving is to be.

Light tables can be purchased but are very simple to build, all you need is a strong light to shine through some glass.
Just something to consider. Brian

 

[monk]

i would say you're certainly on the right track, but the track is too busy. slow down a bit. i believe you would do better for yourself to practice more simplified scrolls and become comfortable doing those. simple, well drawn, reasonably well cut scroll is going to look better than the more complex scroll that is less well drawn, even if the cutting is good. simple , less complex scroll can be quite pretty to the eye. don't be fearful of the less elegant approach.and please, be certain- all our criticisms are intended as positives. never negatively. we all visit here to grow and become better, at least the people here on the forum have helped me to get better !

 

[Miranda Hoffmann]

See, I knew that if I asked I would get the responses I needed!! Thank you all so much for your help. I REALLY appreciate it!

As for the first drawing's scrolls being bare on the left, I hadn't actally finished it yet, that's just where I left off. I wasn't sure if I liked it so I thought I would get some advice before I went any further.

I was a little nervous about it being kind of busy since I have not been engraving for very long at all. I tried to keep all the scrolls large so that I could see them easier since I don't have a microscope yet and I figured they are probably easier to engrave than the little tiny ones.

I agree that I should do more practice plates before starting on the real thing, but my Father-in-law gave this to me and said, "Here, do this and I'll buy you Ron Smith's books in return." You have to remember that he's bought me most of my equipment so far because he thinks I have the potential to really go places. (He must be crazy... ) So I feel that I need to do something for him soon....something not too difficult that will turn out nice for him. He is really in to Nimschke's style (as am I) and I think he wants something more along those lines...maybe even to the point that it's not engraved too deep so that it looks almost "old". Some of the drawings that he showed me were not very detailed and the drawings of the animals weren't all that good, but it's from that time period so he wants that look. Maybe I should go more that route?? (And by the way, he said that there was enough metal on the receiver that if I really mess it up he can just sand/grind it down again and let me start over...)

One other question that I have that's been bothering me is style of cutting. I realize that cutting the background out (relief engraving) is the nicest way to engrave, but I've seen some that look like only the "lines" were engraved out of the metal and that was it. Would it be better for me to start out with this type of engraving until I become more comfortable or should I start with what I plan on doing in the future anyway? And to be honest, I'm not even really sure how that works or how to make it look nice. Any advice on that??

I, I'm sure like every beginner engraver, am way too excited to really get started on engraving and I fear that I am rushing the very important steps of learning to draw layouts and scrolls too quicky in my haste to cut that metal. But I also fear that if I don't start now, I may NEVER get there!! Maybe I'll be able to figure out some nice pretty scroll work that is simple enough to get me started and go from there. Has anyone seen anything like that that I could look at?? I have many books to look through, and if you know of something in a book let me know the title and what page because I probably have it. I have the Steel Canvas book by my side right now which is currently what I have been studying. It's a good reference until I get my drawing books.

Anyway, thank you again for all of the wonderful advice. Hope I haven't rambled on too much...
-miranda

 

[Bill Tokyo]

Drawing tools

Maybe one bit of advice from someone who is an absolutely tyro engraver themself.

Use drawing tools. They're a nuisance to use until you get used to them, because its much easier to
draw free hand. Also, you have to get someone to show you how to use the various curves and
how to put them together. But the jump in quality you'll get on your basic designs is worth the
extra effort.

 

[Miranda Hoffmann]

What types of drawing tools do you use?? We have an awesome art store about 10 minutes from here that carries just about everything so I have easy access to it all.

 

[John B.]

Hi Miranda.
It's good to see you making a start at posting some of your drawings.
The folks here are great and will give you a lot of help and advise.
I enjoyed visiting with you, your husband and the kids at Scott's.
It was good to see you again.
You might consider buying a set of scroll templates and Ray Phillips basic engraving book,$5.00 from the Ngraver Co. 860-823-1533.
Even though you will need to learn to draw the scroll backbones and leaves by hand the templates will give you good examples to follow at first.
They are also useful later on to put over you hand drawn scrolls to check that you have formed them correctly.
Ray's little $5.00 book has lots of examples of layouts for belt buckles, some in the Nimschke style.
You might consider making your father-in-law one of these for practice before starting on the gun.
If you PM me I will send you a steel belt buckle blank for practice if you like.
Best wishes to you and your family.
John B.

 

[Jack Davenport]

drawing tools

Hi Miranda: on the drawing tools, the ones that I have used the most in designing knives and even making some gun parts from scratch, including stocks and forends is a set of French curves. every single line that has ever been used in scroll work is somewhere in the curve set, you just have to find it and ditto on the Ron Smith book of scroll drawing he has written two to my knowledge. using the French curves is like learning to play the chromatic harmonica, all of the notes you need are there you just have to learn the ones not to sound on.

 

[monk]

you gotta slow down with a capital s ! cutting away a background is a chore and a half for those with lots of experience ! for an absolute newbie, i'd say you better back away from the background work. do easy work at first. short easy little things that will give you a sense of acheivement. tackling a much more complex job, well i'm thinkin you're probably setting yourself up for who knows what. my thoughts are practical: i think it's crucial to get in some practical cutting experience along with the drawing. i would never say don't cut. but why don't you first cut your layout on a practice plate and get the feel for what you're doing. also, the notion of grinding off your engraving and having a new gun surface to deal with- i wouldn't do that, period!! this is not an acceptable line of thinking for an engraver! such a procedure could prove dangerous , perhaps even fatal ! maybe if it were a very thick practice plate of steel or brass. one just would never do this to a gun. if you have the need, e-mail me - monk45@verizon.net. if you pay for the shipping i can mail you a few steel practice plates at no cost. i have enough steel layin around my shop, it would be a blessing to get rid of some of it.the steel would be of a size that your full size layouts would have more than enough room to fit.

 

[Bill Tokyo]

Drawing tools

What types of drawing tools do you use?? We have an awesome art store about 10 minutes from here that carries just about everything so I have easy access to it all.

I've done quite a bit of rendering before I got to engraving, so I have a pretty full set.

What you basically need is a drawing board, a T square, and a set of triangles, compasses and protractors, which everyone has.

It gets a bit more hairy when you start drawing scrolls. You need as complete a set of French curves as possible. I have around 20 different shapes, and then you need as many templates for ovals and circles in as many sizes possible. Over the years I've gotten to the point where I have maybe a hundred different sizes.

I understand that there are also templates available for drawing scrolls, and I aim to buy some of them as soon as I get around to it.

Bill

 

[Ron Smith]

Hi Miranda, I can see by your layouts that you have a good eye for balance and design. The very first thing you need to do is establish a leaf style that you like, and learn it. Tear it into pieces and learn one line at a time. This is your foundation for future progression. If you start with a strong foundation, you will be pleased with your progress. Do the base line of the leaf first, Do the next line change in direction, then the next change in direction, and so on and so forth. Pay attention to line relationships and how one line relates to the other in the leaf structure. Commit the structure of each line in the leaf structure and it's personal characteristic to memory so you can repeat it.

Could you ever learn the combustion engine without taking each piece, understanding it and re-assembling it? It is the same with leaf and scroll structures. If you will do this, you will find your progress in design will be swift. Whether you buy my book or not, this is how I teach students to understand what they are drawing, so pick a particular leaf that you like, study it, and break it down into parts. Let me know how you are doing with this concept, and if I can help you further, feel free to ask................Ron S

This is about the only way to improve quickly, but it will probably seem kind of slow to you, but it works.

 

[Ron Smith]

Oh, by the way Miranda, I personally like the scroll layout in design number three the best. It shows balance, rythum, and a little better consistency throughout. The buffalo would look good in that space, but there is a need to balance the design at the bottom where the space is under the round frame, and at the top in that space too. Put a leaf in there or something to balance the "beat" of your work and to create continuity. If this is not a very clear critique, I will explain further, just ask.............Ron S

 

[Miranda Hoffmann]

I think the receiver he gave me to engrave on was just for fun...for him. I think he's using it to shoot with on his own and is letting me practice engraving on it for the heck of it and that is why he would grind it down if I thought I messed it up. But honestly, I think he just told me that so I wouldn't be so nervous about it....being as how engraving is so permanent...

Ron - Thank you for critiquing my work! I like the third drawing the best also...that is why it is mostly complete and I actually traced over it with fine felt tip markers to get a better idea of what the result would look like. Do you think I should try to practice this design on a practice plate to see how well I do?? Also, if you look at the drawing with the buffalo head you'll see a leaf at the top and bottom of the circle. That was intended for the third drawing, but I couldn't get it to flow nicely off of anything without it looking like it came out of nowhere...but I wasn't sure if I wanted to change the rest of the design to accommodate two leaves. I'll have to study it some more. Any ideas??

One more thing, can I engrave these designs without cutting out the background and still make it look elegant?? Are there any special tips for doing this??

Am I asking for too much??

miranda

 

[Mike Cirelli]

Miranda you got some good advice here. I might add, trace you design as Brian suggested until refined. You can also make photo copies and use a fine .3mm mechanical pencil to shade it in one line at a time, even try using an opti visor if you have one when drawing. Don't try to do scroll that your not able to shade properly as that will be very unrewarding to yourself. Stay within you ability. I know you're probably anxious to start cutting into that gun but patience can be very gratifying. Keep it up your well on your way.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Miranda

Definatley try it on a practice plate first.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[monk]

a beginner never asks too much. if you asked too much, nobody would answer you ! yes, work without a sunken background can look very elegant. that same work with the sunken background would simply have a greater depth to it and overall, would probably look better. i'm not apologizing for repeating myself- practice drawing. practice cutting on practice plates! there's no reason to do otherwise. if your'e in a hurry, you're in the wrong business.