Draw/Cut/Draw/Cut/Draw/Cut

[Phil Coggan]

I have found it a lot less time consuming by just drawing the design and cutting on the fly. It saves drawing, scanning, printing and transfering. I do this for all furnature.

Here's an example.

Phil

 

[Thierry Duguet]

Hummm, modern technology is not necessary time saving or efficient. I never transfer scrolls or alike I always thought that it was a wast of time.

 

[SamW]

I expect many if not most of us "old timers" do work that way, at least with scroll. However, fairly new engravers may well find it leads to serious mistakes until a lot of experience has been gained.

 

[Sam]

Excellent photo series, Phil. I work a similar way and I hope the newby engravers take note of the masterful boldness and precision of your cutting. I see an awful lot of lifeless, flat engraving being done. Your work has such character and strength!

 

[rmgreen]

I agree with all post but as a person with less than long term experience with engraving I ask for a bit of clarification so that I may more fully understand the comments of the "Old Timers".

Boldness - I agree that the engraving is "bold". Why is it bold? Is it the depth of cut as this is the first indication to my simple eye. What are other characteristics of boldness?

Lifeless/flat - Does this indicate the lack of depth of cut or is it more to do with shading as certainly this example is not lifeless and the shading brings to life the movement of work and 3D effect.

 

[Phil Coggan]

Sam & Sam,

The thing is, us oldies, never had the books, video's and computor tools that are here today, you know, I look at how it is today and think, well if you can't engrave with all of this stuff than there's something wrong. Let's face it, you stick a graver in a template and sharpen it whilst watching tv. You stick the graver in a power tool and more or less point it where you want it to go..ok, I know there's a bit more to it than that, but what I'm saying is that within one hour a complete novice can have a design printed out, his graver sharp and he should be able to engrave a few lines.

I'm not knocking the way things are, in fact I think it's great, it's when students make too much of things that gets me a bit, it's only if they go back to the way it was would they really appreciate what is possible today.

Enough of my rantings I just post to help those who might have difficulties, find the right road...not that my ways are the only ones

Phil

 

[zzcutter]

Beautiful as always Phil, I do all my work by drawing on the steel with pencil. I have never transfered a design,but I just guess I am old school.

 

[SamW]

Oh, I agree with you Phil...just don't want inexperienced engravers to venture into dangerous territory...which they just might do if it is not pointed out to them. I don't remember if I tried "design as you go" in my early days but stranger things have happened!

 

[monk]

aside from the final quality of work, i really like the metamorphosis shown here by your foto series. that is rather very nice to me.

 

[Ron Spokovich]

All in all, I agree with Phil in drawing and cutting on the fly. They all did it, at one time, before the electronic time saving gadgetry arrived on the scene. As far as reversing a sketch, I still have a lot of tracing paper and carbon paper laying around at the ready. It sure doesn't hurt to practice lots of drawing, no matter how bad you feel it is. . .it'll get better as the days go on, so don't take the gas pipe over it. The depth, width, and flowing beauty will come with practice, and you'll know it when you see it.

 

[diandwill]

Sam & Sam,

The thing is, us oldies, never had the books, video's and computor tools that are here today, you know, I look at how it is today and think, well if you can't engrave with all of this stuff than there's something wrong. Let's face it, you stick a graver in a template and sharpen it whilst watching tv. You stick the graver in a power tool and more or less point it where you want it to go..ok, I know there's a bit more to it than that, but what I'm saying is that within one hour a complete novice can have a design printed out, his graver sharp and he should be able to engrave a few lines.

I'm not knocking the way things are, in fact I think it's great, it's when students make too much of things that gets me a bit, it's only if they go back to the way it was would they really appreciate what is possible today.

Enough of my rantings I just post to help those who might have difficulties, find the right road...not that my ways are the only ones

Phil

I truly appreciate your posts. I think a lot has to do with drive. Even with your detailed drawings, to handmake a revolver, I would never attempt such a thing.

Many people are amazed at my attention to detail, working on such small canvases and, as a jeweler, on such a small scale. And yet, my efforts pale compared to yours. Some people are just wired differently. It is a blessing for us that you are one of those and that you are willing to share with the rest of us almost normal people.

Thank you for that. It is appreciated and treasured.

 

[Phil Coggan]

Thanks for your kind words

 

[dcurrie911]

Phil, beautiful work as always.

I just counted 52 pages of drawings for my current project. If it were possible I am sure that I could count many more erased lines than completed ones. It took me 6 months from the first pencil line to the first cut and I would probably make 100 more changes if I had it to do over.

My question is for Phil and all of you successful oldtimers. Do you possess a vision and talent which allows you to draw and cut as Phil does? Did it come quickly and easily?

Dan

 

[dcurrie911]

Phil, beautiful work as always.

I just counted 52 pages of drawings for my current project. If it were possible I am sure that I could count many more erased lines than completed ones. It took me 6 months from the first pencil line to the first cut and I would probably make 100 more changes if I had it to do over.

My question is for Phil and all of you successful oldtimers. Do you possess a vision and talent which allows you to draw and cut as Phil does? Did it come quickly and easily?

Dan

 

[Phil Coggan]

Dan,

I don't know what your project is but 52 pages seems excesive, if you are self enployed that price would have to be added!!!

I can usually do the design drawings for both sides and underneath a gun in two to three days.

As for cutting and drawing, I am the same as anyone else, it all comes with experience as when first starting, we don't know really what we are doing! Our first designs which looked good at the time, are basically rubbish compared to todays work. I was in the situation where I never got to see real guns, only pictures, so cut angles etc were not clear. I knew they were there, but on my first H&H I overdid them. It was not until Ken Preater who was the head of engraving at H&H mentioned this to me that I realised this and corrected it from then on.

Phil

 

[Lee]

Very important thread and kudos to Phil for starting it. It appears that I work pretty much the same as Phil- draw some, cut some, the design tends to develop as I go or on the fly. I don't claim that this is the best way. It certainly is riskier. With the more complex projects, I come much closer to designing the whole piece before cutting and then it is mainly scroll backbones with simple details such as the larger leaves. The only time I draw on paper is when the client requests it and then it is usually a simple quick concept sketch.

The attachment is an exercise I did to expand my thinking many years ago before I cut my first gun. I anticipated doing a specific type of gun so I drew the outline of a panel from that gun and started drawing. I intentionally changed the design for every panel-brainstorming as it were. My goal was not to come up with a useable design for every one but rather to explore how many different ideas I could come up with and familiarize myself a bit with many different styles. I have never used one as first drawn. This far down the road I can look at them and see that some are terrible and some can be used with modification.

I suspect I have taught over 300 students and it is my considered observation that the American engraver in general needs the most help in the areas of drawing and design. The modern high tech world allows the outlines of animals and scrolls to be transferred accurately but without the understanding of how to shade to create form and proper balance in values- light and dark- the image will appear flat.

Drawing is the foundation of all art disciplines be it sculpture, painting, etc..

I apologize if I have wandered off topic.

P.S. the other side of the design sheet has more designs and over the years many more were drawn during boring church sermons, phone conversations, sporting events and ...........you get the idea.

 

[dcurrie911]

Hi Phil. Luckily for me I have a full time job and am only learning engraving so my design time is my own. But I do struggle with design as Lee suggests most beginners do. I hope that I will improve and speed up with time. I'm just wondering how much can be learned and how much must be natural talent? Probably a rhetorical question as I expect everyone is different and natural talent is difficult to measure.

BTW, my current project is a Win94. Completed left side shading attached. (if it works )

 

[FerrousOxide]

Beautiful work. Thank you for the sequence of photos...it is very helpful to see the process and enjoy/study the progression of cuts.

 

[diandwill]

I would suggest buying a book or DVD if you haven't already. Shawn Didyoung is the latest to put one out. He and Silverchip followed it up with a weekend workshop, time divided between drawing and smithing. You can't go wrong there.
GRS has a class (I believe) dedicated mostly to drawing and design. It would be great to make it to one of those.
A good class, drawing practice etc. has the potential to elevate ones engraving from more mundae to eye-popping, upper tier. It would be worth doing, if one can spare the time.

 

[Big-Un]

I feel like the guy looking into a room full of giants in the industry, just outside the door looking in and listening to all being said. I do the same stuff the same way (drawing directly on the metal) but just haven't reached the expertise to step in the room. It may not be obvious to those that are naturals at designing, but the total concept is in their minds before the first line is drawn, and it builds from there. I'm in awe of their talent and appreciate their willingness to share it with the world. Thanks to all here that do that.

Bill