Help, please: Colt SAA, Help identifying Engraver

[bparisi]

Hi, I am new to the forum and hope someone will be able to help me out identifying the engraver. Here is the info I have. Any help would be appreciated. - Thanks, B.

Colt SAA - 7.5" barrell

Barrell Stampings: Colt's PTFA Mfg. Co. Hartford CT. USA

Frame Stamped: PAt Sept 19 1871. July 2.-72. Jan 19.-75

Trigger guard stamped 45 Cal.
Serial # 117192

 

[Beathard]

It's a pretty standard look. Are there any initials are a name engraved? Maybe under the grips?

 

[JJ Roberts]

Looks to me like Cuno Helfricht's engraving.J.J.

 

[Roger Bleile]

Done in Helfricht's style but many engravers copy his style. Without actually seeing the gun or high resolution, close up images I can't make a positive ID. Do you have a Colt letter?

RB

 

[bparisi]

Roger: I am calling Colt today. Once I order the letter it will take approx. 120 days to receive. However over the phone they will give me some information such as where it was shipped and general information reguarding the firearm itself. I will repost once I recieve this information. Hopefully it will help.

Beathard: I have not recmoved the grips, so I am unsure.

 

[JJ Roberts]

A new book Colt Factory Engraver of the nineteenth century by Herbert Houze is a good book for reference of engravers from the past. J.J.

 

[Beathard]

The problem is the style is copied a lot. The Colt papers will tell if it left the factory engraved and possibly who did it. If it was done post factory, we might never know unless there is a name or initials on it.

 

[mdengraver]

Examples of Cuno Helfricht's work. His engraving work looks strikingly the same as your gun.


Cuno Helfricht Deluxe Engraved Texas Shipped Colt Single Action Army Revolver with Factory Letter
http://www.icollector.com/Cuno-Helf...on-Army-Revolver-with-Factory-Letter_i9752412
A rare Cuno Helfricht engraved gold and silver-plated Colt single action army revolver
http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/17533/lot/5123/

 

[JJ Roberts]

Many of the gun companys would'nt let the engraver sign there work,engraver Joseph Loy put his initial in between his scrolls,and when Annie Oakley pick up her new engraverd Parker she went in and had the engraver sign it before she left the factory. J.J.

 

[bparisi]

Here is what Colt told me over the phone: 45 Cal, 7.5 BBL... Left with: Blue finish & rubber grips. Left May 5, 1886 in a 25 gun lot. To Simmons Hardwar St Louis Missouri. Does this help narrow it down to an engraver? Thanks.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

I'm not sure the engraving is that old. Either that or the gun has been kept in a box for a long time. It seems to have little if any wear and tear associated with a gun over 100 years old, especially as it is not a high end or presentation gun........and the engraving has more of a modern look to it.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Roger Bleile]

"Here is what Colt told me over the phone: 45 Cal, 7.5 BBL... Left with: Blue finish & rubber grips. Left May 5, 1886 in a 25 gun lot. To Simmons Hardwar St Louis Missouri. Does this help narrow it down to an engraver? Thanks."

It narrows it down to non-factory freelance engravers but that leaves a large number of craftsmen who could have engraved it over it's life span. In the post war era, up to about 1990, it was common for someone with a well worn first generation SAA to have it reconditioned and in the process have it engraved then plated or reblued. In my early engraving days, engraving tired old SAAs and Model 12 Winchester trap guns was a large part of the trade.

In the case of the gun in question, because the engraving is based on Helfricht's style of ornamentation we may never know who actually engraved it as opposed to a gun cut in an engraver's own unique and identifiable style.

Places to look for an engraver's identifying mark on an SAA is under the grips, under the ejector rod housing, and on the front of the frame near where the axis pin goes through. Keep in mind that SAAs engraved in the style of 19th century factory work were sometimes intentionally meant to deceive and for that reason no signature or identifying marks will be found.

RB

 

[Marrinan]

I can see no indication of hammer hesitation. It may be a very modern cutting job. Jeff Flannery perhaps. Fred

 

[Roger Bleile]

Fred,

I don't see any progress marks either but the images are not close enough to be sure. I am certain that it is not the work of Jeff Flannery. I have known Jeff for more than 30 years and only live a few miles from him. His work is very distinctive and easily identified. Also he always signs his work. Jeff's web site: http://www.flannerygunengraving.com/cowboy.html

Roger

 

[Marrinan]

Roger, I went to Jeff's site before posting. It is the cross cuts that caught my eye. I went through lots of his images and looked for similar style of cross cutting. It looks similar to some of his though not many and not quit exact. I think those cross cuts are detective in style. Have you noted anyone else using that type of spacing, boldness and direction. Detective work can be kind of entertaining. What about Jim Downing's style? Cant really see close-up on his site to well. Fred

 

[Roger Bleile]

Here are some of images of Jeff's work. I don't see the similarity to the gun in question. What do you folks think?

As I mentioned, Jeff always signs his work with at least a JF mark.

ps: I just noticed that this site significantly reduces the size of the images I started with.