Artists have the power

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Artists have the power' is a video documentary you can watch online in HD if you have 80 minutes. Here is the link: http://vimeo.com/34608191

I watched it and it is real interesting. It is about how new techniques are used to make artistic changes.



It is not a documentary about design or engraving, in particular it is more about images and sound, so still about emotions and that is what Art really is about.



So after watching it, the idea popped up again, why not engrave something “NEWâ€￾ and innovate, instead of the classic Acanthus scrolls that are done for so many decades.

I understand that gun engraving have a long history and are catalogued as “classicâ€￾ but there is more to engrave than just guns and knives.

In a way our medium is just design with a graver on metal but still it is about “imagesâ€￾. Perhaps to keep the craft alive, we need to innovate.



This could be interesting to all of us if we share some ideas on this.



arnaud

 

[Red Green]

What are you doing Arnaud? :thinking:

Not the ‘what what’ thing again I hope. Seriously, I haven’t had time to look at the video but I don’t think you’re going to get much response. You’ve made some errors if you want a pleasant conversation about ‘art’. First you said the ‘emotions’ word, right in front of all these guys. You’ve accused everyone of not making ‘new and innovative’ stuff, that’s not going to fly, and you went and said it with ‘classic Acanthus scrolls’ all in one sentence. Knife and gun engraving mean a great deal to many of the forum members here and while they may do other engraving they may see knife and gun engraving as the pinnacle of engraving. And to top it off you stated that the ‘craft’ needs to be kept alive through innovation, some may find that arguable.

Now I want you to go back to the blackboard and write a 75 word positive request for a conversation about creativity in engraving,… I’ll wait.

Bob

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Bob, it is not my attempt to accuse anyone about what he/she cuts. I just try to mirror new ideas from other creative art forms into engraving.

arnaud

 

[Red Green]

Arnaud,

I understand, and you have done nothing wrong, no one should be unhappy about anything you have said. What I was trying to say is you have not opened a conversation about the video or engraving creativity as it appears you were attempting. You've made seven statements and no questions. The first six do not offer even an opening for a positive reply. If you would have ended the post after the first two statements you may have had some positive reaction. The third statement stopped a great many males from even looking at the video, images and sounds about emotions don’t call many of them. The next three statements don’t invite conversation but some may find irritation in them. Your last statement was almost a question or request but falls short as you have not offered a point of entry for anyone.

So my point was you need to rewrite your thread opening if you want others to join in.

Bob

 

[Jeroen]

This could be interesting to all of us if we share some ideas on this.
arnaud

This looks like 'offering a point of entry' to me, no?

What Arnaud (always) means is: don’t always do things “the way they’re done”, try something else, try it another way, even if “the way they’re done” works well for you. If you do that, something new, something interesting may come out.
One should for example read in that same way his last invitation to join in Mitch’s shadow exercise.

So he didn’t mean the acanthus and scroll engraving is boring or past! I don’t believe most of the readers here thought he did, but I explain anyway, as it’s a bit unfair as you put it here, RedGreen.
One point where you sure are right, RedGreen, is: Arnaud does make statements. And it will be hard to convince him of the opposite, as they are made after long thinking and trying, and then stated to see what others do/think/try. So his statements are made not as ‘a big thruth’, but as an invitation to give input on that.

So: nobody is accused of anything whatsoever, everybody is invited.

BTW: you really should watch that documentary

Jeroen

 

[Red Green]

Jeroen,

I was not offering admonishment to Arnaud just advice. The language and cultural difference is small but crucial at times and this is one of them I believe. I know what you say is true but American English and culture have built in restraints and when you push certain buttons you can expect a reaction or lack of one. Propaganda and advertizing experts all agree, people are easily swayed with the right images and words.

Bob

 

[peteb]

I my self am only on the edge of knowing about engraving (thanks to the forums) and now having collected some tools, I will try to create "art" by making "iconic" images of the past centuries in silver, niobium and platinum. I hope my lack of knowledge in classic engraving will result in developing a unique style for jewelry. My point is that in having such limited knowledge and experience, I am not bound by conventional forms of leaf and scrolls, perhaps free to create something new. I think that is what Arnaud is talking about.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Thanks Jeroen, I thought I understood redgreen’s point, but is seems I didn’t.
Yours help perhaps does. Thing is as you mentioned, I didn’t make any statements on this one, just share a link. It is worth to watch the video, I did 3 times already.
The video is not about engraving, but it is about emotions, art point of view etc, sure it could help to look outside the box.

Whether or not one shares his point of view here, it is up to them. I just step into a cafe trying to share ideas. If none is interested, no problem Bob.

So as Jeroen said, this is just an invitation to talk about the video “Artists have the power” and how it could help our art of engraving

arnaud

 

[Red Green]

Arnaud,

The gap widens, it is obvious I have made myself as clear as mud. I recant my previous posts and instead offer this:

Thanks for the link, I haven’t seen the video as of yet, I’m sure it’s quite inspirational.

Bob

 

[Red Green]

Peteb,

I don’t know if I should say anything more in this thread but I just do not understand what you mean. Are you saying you think you can create unique engravings of images of the past by lack of knowledge about how it was done in the past? If so when will you know if it is unique, will you wait until someone says ‘hey this is unique’ or when they say ‘hey this is just like all the other stuff’? I have never known of anyone gaining leverage by lack of knowledge. Finding your own way does not mean ignoring the work of others. You will not be bound by knowledge it will free you from the ignorance of what you seek.

Bob

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Yes Bob, I don't know much about American English, even less on UK and Australian English, only a bit of arnaud English. If we could have a live conversation, perhaps it would be easier to communicate.
But even some neighbours just two streets from my place, they don't understand me neither, although we share the same language.
However, my over 2500 posts barely caused any problems understanding what I was telling.

arnaud

 

[Red Green]

Arnaud,

I’m sure you’re correct, it is I who was misspoken. I am often astounded by what I do not understand about what goes on around me in this world. Pay no mind to me, I’m just a foolish old chatterbox.

Bob

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Bob, your request "Pay no mind to me", can't. If you want what to know what goes on around you in this world, keep posting and I will tell you.

arnaud

 

[Red Green]

Arnaud,



I will make a substantial effort in the attempt to do so. I’m sure there is much to glean from what you post.


Bob

 

[delder]

Arnaud makes a valid point. I think we're in trouble if we can't think out of the box, just a little.

 

[blacksmith_wills]

Gents,

As you will note from my user name, I am a blacksmith. Not a Master of the craft by any means, certainly not a beginner after 22 years. Journeyman maybe......?

As I look at the parallels between blacksmithing and engraving I'm struck by the similarities. There are many artist blacksmiths who believe that only the "traditional" way is appropriate since those are the skills that we want to preserve for the future.

Other artist blacksmiths are heavily involved in the "abstract" sculpture side of the craft. They use any technique available to invoke the desired emotion within the viewer.

In truth, they are both correct and have a very important roll in the art and the craft of blacksmithing. I see younger people come into the craft and go in both directions.

Like engraving, blacksmithing is very much alive and well. And growing.

Art is all about inspiring emotion in the viewer.

There is a certain emotional satisfaction a person gets when viewing the symetry in perfectly executed traditional scroll work as seen in a nice stair rail or balcony.

There is certainly an emotional connection when viewing some of the more abstract art as presented by skilled artist blacksmiths who work in that style.

A very substantial amount of work and thought goes into both types of work.

I am a beginner in engraving but I will likely find a similar parallel within this art form as well.

The truth is that all types of engraving will attract beginners who have an affinity for a particular form or style.

The point that I am trying to make is that it's critical to the "art of engraving" as a whole that beginners are encouraged to latch on to a particular style that invokes emotion within themselves.

There is no right or wrong style, only differences that are defined by the emotional effort expended by the artist and the emotional state inspired by the artist in the viewer.

Before a beginner can immerse themselves in a particular style they must first experience it as an observer.

For that to happen they must be exposed to it in the first place. I believe that is what Arnaud is attempting to accomplish.

Once a style is observed, the emotion the beginning engraver feels will drive them forward. Or not.

Just my observations from another very traditionally based art form.

Best Regards,

Matt

 

[peteb]

Matt
Well said

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Matt, thanks for your point of view. I started with the classics on engraving, and I think it is the perfect base to start with. And sure I still like it.
If you look at architecture now a day, mostly at least over here, the outside is just a box. Hundred years ago, one our work was much less than now a days. So houses were decorated even on the outside. Now a days these extras are too expensive for most people.
I'm working on a bracelet that is that time consuming, I will have to charge 5000 euros. My name ain't Picasso, Chris DeCamillis, Phil Coggan or whatever master name, so the bracelet I won't be able to sell.

As you are a blacksmith, I used to know some that now retired. And it would be real hard to find one over here that is able to do it the old way; probably too expensive. And for the same reason, all those copper engravers for printing designs are gone.

There are some artists that use etching technique, some who have the money they invest in that kind of art and pay a lot for crap. They see it as an investment.

The bracelet I'm working on, it is just playing as I call that, trying to do the best I can, but only for myself. My "bite of border" I cut on Ti wedding rings, probably already sold 50 times, should be something like 40.000 euros.
and yes, it is engraving sort at random. The running leaf border I only could sell twice.

So I already have some answers on what to engrave to make a living, and it pays well. but it ain't classic.

arnaud

here is the "bite of border"

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Bob, I don't bother that much what you do. I looked at your posts and it seems recently you are mostly focusing on me. And I didn't find any tread you started that shows something. I have no problem with that but your behave telling me what to do, don't.

arnaud

 

[Red Green]

Arnaud,

I do not seem to be able to find peace with you, allow me formally apologize. It seems I have misunderstood and considered a friendly relationship existed between us and I have therefore overstepped my place. If I have offended you please forgive my transgressions, I will not repeat the error and will leave you in peace.

Bob