Apprenticeships - back on thread

[Roger B]

Here in the US I served a four year apprenticeship as a Joiner (Cabinetmaker) through The United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners of America (Carpenters Union). I started at 22 and applied through the Union rather than a shop. I spent the first six months in school at the education center sponsored by the Brotherhood and a group of business owners dedicated to having a steady supply of skilled cabinet makers. I worked part-time (4 Hours per day) in various shops doing sweeping and related cleanup chores and general gofer work at half journeyman pay. I studied safety, joints, history, design, etc. with increasing hours in the shop and less time in school until I worked full time and went to school at night. Responsibilities increased as I covered various aspects of the trade. Machine operations, finishing and so forth. Pay raises occurred on 6 month intervals until I took my journeymen's test after the full four years. After two years in the shops I was assigned my first apprentice. Fred

I don't know what happens overseas but I feel apprenticeships seem to be an increasing thing of the past - especially in jewellery and in Oz I don't know of any engraving apprenticeships. Other trades may still carry them on but these seem to be trades that have a strong union or guild background. If jewellers or engravers do not have a vocal lobby group to push for the training it just won't happen.

Roger

 

[oakleave]

Hello Engraving Enthusiasts and linguistic experts,
I like to apologize for the misspelling.
My intention was to share some engraving apprenticeship idears or inspiration for beginning engravers. Especilly the hardship and repetion of work is often underestimated.
If I had imagined this linguistic discussion I would not have posted it.
This is a great engraver forum and we should focus on engraving
Cheers.
Bernie

 

[Brian Marshall]

My take on traditional apprenticeships...

There are likely to be very few in the near future. Look around you. The entire world is pretty fractured at the moment...

I would guess 5 or maybe even 10 years until the high end jewelry market returns, and even then I seriously doubt it will return to the levels of 15 or 20 years ago.

You need an excess of work in order to hire and train apprentices. Someone/something has to pay the freight. Without money - nothing happens.

And then you have the fact that hand skills are rapidly being pushed out of the way by cad/cam, "printing" and other new technologies.

I do believe that there will always be a hard core niche market for hand engraving and fabrication and those at the top will continue to make a living, but those coming in will have a tough row to hoe...

If, and when the workload increases, so will the need for help.


Brian

 

[Marrinan]

Brian, I must agree with your comments though I know very little of the commercial side of the jewelry business. I always worked commercial as a cabinetmaker. In the commercial side of that industry, business supported the union to a great extent. When working jobs that have penalty clauses and very strict deadlines, where business reputation was critical to the next job and were cost was a driving force having a trained, replaceable workforce drove union and business. When an employer required x number of skilled cabinetmakers or carpenters or millwrites for a particular job, individuals trained in the skills required were a phone call away. When the job was completed the workers simply were sent back to the hiring hall (laid off). Over time, having proved our skill and reliability most of us ended up staying in one shop. In some years I worked for as many as 4 shops. Some years only one. The union managed vacation pay, insurance, and training as part of our benefit package. Our system required so many apprentices for x number of journeymen on a job. It also limited the number of street hires based on the journeymen count. The school was also funded though the benefit package.

Fred

 

[silverchip]

So a few yrs ago,I went to Argentina to learn about the silversmiths in that part of the world. It seems that if you were born into the trade,you might be sent to school and serve an apprenticeship under your family for a few yrs. But if you decided to take this on as an independent, there is a state sponsored program in regional schools that run for 3 yrs.(like junior college). After completing the course,you would be given a certificate of completion and a recommendation for an apprenticeship to an existing shop.I believe the usual duration is 7 yrs. after which you would be taken on at full scale or cut loose to go it alone.

 

[Marrinan]

It seems that a while back there was an interview process for an apprentice in engraving at the us mint. I believe it was ten years if I remember right.

While engravers are patient by the nature of the art form. There is little hope of immediate gratification in this business. The younger generation seems more inclined to want to by a few tools, maybe take a class or two then move to journeymen status. It would surprise me to find someone willing to settle to start at half wages and dedicate 3 or 4 years of slight salary increases to work their way to starting wages in the trade not to mention the study and supervision required.

If there was such individuals and an organization willing to sponsor such an endeavor. It would be possible to create a curriculum through research and most importantly consensus of the requirements of journeyman skill sets, study materials and resource development as well as willing instructors for each phase of the training. I have considered putting in the effort to develop such product through tried and true methods of instructional design and curriculum development to provide new folks with a road map to the competencies required to be successful in this business. I have written 67 curriculum guides for the state of Florida on a wide variety of subjects. These are designed to provide trade school programs with guidance in bring new programs to the market place. Through the use of committees of both practitioners and instructors, research into existing programs and identification and consensus, a guide and resources could be developed for anyone wishing to understand the required skills and knowledge and steer them into an avenue to reach the desired skill set. Fred

 

[Big-Un]

At twenty years old, I became an electrical apprentice through the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW). It required four years of training, nine months per year of two nights at four hours each of study in theory, codes and almost everything you could think of involving electricity, plus safety. The daytime hours were spent under the tutelage of a liscensed journeyman electrician, at least forty hours per week. He was responsible for further teaching and also for your actual work. It was not easy, as the homework involved as much study time as actual class time. Upon graduation, some went and were certified at the local college with an AA in Electrical Engineering. I went on to study Architecture, but the trig/analytical geometry got me....couldn't understand a thing in the class! But, through the apprenticeship program, journeyman classes were offered in the specialized fields of our work, such as high voltage cable splicing, fibre optics, industrial motor controls and industrial welding, which I eventually obtained and ultimately taught welding at the school. All this to say that this type of apprenticeship is rigorous and well worth the effort, as I have been able to use my skills all over the US. I'm afraid though that this form of training will not work here in the US for engraving, not because we don't have the interest or possible applicants, but the need for it is not there commercially. Plus, machines such as Leonardo's and Chris' may be useful commercially as a less expensive alternative to hand engraving, where the effect is close to hand engraving, but without the "personality." The guild could look into something similar, but it would have to be done as distance training. GRS and several great engraving teachers across the country are doing something close to apprentice training with specified and personal teaching, but the mentor follow-up is lacking. Maybe some of the teachers could incorporate a mentor program into their personal training to help the student through the difficult transition from brain overload to actual application of class instruction, at least for a specified period of time. I know when I completed my class at GRS, the following weeks were confusing and, even though I referred to the books, the videos and this forum, I still muddled through the application of my training. It would be an added responsibility to the instructor to undertake the extra work with his student, but I believe the time would be beneficial to the student. While most instructors welcome follow-up calls from their students, most times the student feels he is "bothering" his teacher outside class. If a set time is provided for follow-up instruction after class time, with a set of projects or, more specifically, certain requirements be met for evaluation, then maybe the student will get more out of his time and expense. Class time is information overload and the student needs help deciphering what was presented and how to apply that information in a controlled manner. This is about the only way I can see an apprenticeship working in our industry. Of course I recognize there are other thoughts on this and I welcome any and all comments.

Fraternally your's,

Bill

 

[Marrinan]

Bill, You seem to see some real issues that will always be a problem with this kind of model. Shop size, working independently etc. If an organization like FEGA or the International (that effort has collapsed I believe) would embrace the concept by simply sanctioning, provide validation of the skills and providing the evaluation and facilitate the various testing leading to a professional status certification. All the issues are surmountable. End result would be a definable and valid journeyman and masters status which would enhance the organization and help to significantly improve what a hand engraver knows.

I belong to a couple of organizations that offer "Professional" "Master" "Guild Mark" type level recognition. They take no part in actually assisting in the training or qualifying of the members. I guess it is okay but it is what it is. A peer reviewed "that-a-boy" Fred

 

[DKanger]

I have written 67 curriculum guides for the state of Florida on a wide variety of subjects. These are designed to provide trade school programs with guidance in bring new programs to the market place.

Unless I am mistaken, Montgomery Community College has a resident engraving program resulting in an AA. It, along with the other 3 NRA programs, never seem to warrant a mention here. If I were a youngster just starting out, they are the first I would consider. Likewise for veterans who wish to use their VA benefits, which I believe also cover some living expenses while attending.

 

[silverchip]

I believe that the NEA supports some types of apprenticeship programs,well at least they do provide funding through state art programs here that I am aware of.I don't know to what extent the funding can support an individual while the process is underway or if there is any required follow up with the participants.It might be that the application process and the bureaucracy involved is a detraction but a necessary evil in order to accomplish a goal and get some compensation for your efforts.But nothing attached to a federally funded program is ever easy.What I do qualifies under the "Folk Arts" category according to the Idaho Commission on the Arts.I know several people here have taken advantage of the funding to further their endeavors.The one requirement for each state is that you must be a resident of that state thus impeding some from being able to spend time with someone that they really would prefer to.

 

[Brian Marshall]

The student/apprentice has to want to continue a relationship after the formal teaching/apprenticeship ends...

Unfortunately, in my experience that rarely happens. However when it does, it usually lasts a lifetime.

There's a handful that I hear from on a regular basis, and a few that stay in contact once or twice a year.

People tend to forget, there are changes in their lives, they lose interest, and a couple probably wound up locked in a rubber room somewhere...

(Where you aren't allowed to have pencils. Or any other sharp objects.)


B.

 

[Sandy]

Emporia State U. Has an engraving program in their arts department. You will receive a degree in fine arts with a major in engraving. They have produced some great engravers. Mitch Lurth, Jake Newell and some others.

Montgomery J.C. Has a great Gunsmithing program. I believe this is where the engraving comes in. There are 5 or 6 other JUCO's that have the program.

One of the nice things about the GRS Training Center you will spend 40 plus hours on dedicated study of engraving from a world class master engraver/instructor. If you think about it, that is more time then what you spend in class in semester of college.

Like it has been said the Classes reduce the learning curve greatly. Give it a close look. Then take a class.
Sandy

 

[Beathard]

Emporia State University in Emporia, Kansas offers a Bachelors in Fine Arts in Engraving. Link: http://www.emporia.edu/art/engravingarts/

 

[silverchip]

Isn't apprenticeship more of a focused hands on learning concept?Not to say school shouldn't be an important step but, more of a beginning step.Nothing wrong with a degree,I wish I had one!!!!

 

[Roger B]

My jewellery apprenticeship 35 years ago involved being indentured to the employer for 4 years. During the first 3 years we had to attend 1 day a week during the school terms classes at the technical college where we underwent art classes as well as practical lessons in making jewellery. In later years the students also took setting classes. Had I been exposed to engraving first I like to think that I would have taken that role on instead but there were no classes let alone an apprenticeship available. As it was I had to leave my home in Adelaide and move to Melbourne (a third of the way across the country) to be able to do jewellery - there was no classes in Adelaide at the time and the only young people who were taught in the trade were 2nd or 3rd generation jewellers. I would have been prepared to continue with my employer after being with him for the indenture period but for the drop in the amount of available work at that time (we catered to a rather slim range of the market - basically imigrants from the Baltic area).

Roger

 

[diandwill]

But if you earn the Bachelors degree, in fine arts, with an emphasis on engraving, you can become a realtor. They seem to demand a BA! Go figure.

 

[Brian Marshall]

Ummm... Dave.... did I not tell you about my past experiences with university trained "art" metalsmiths?

Be very very glad you learned the way did! You are light years ahead of where you might have been with a degree!

I would definitely prefer someone trained in a working shop to someone trained at a university.


Brian


(Keep in mind, this is MY opinion - based on MY experiences. And yes, I'm sure there are exceptions - I've just never met one. Yet.)

 

[silverchip]

So Brian, even with all my "real" work experience,a degree in biz management wouldn't have been a smart thing to have? My unofficial apprenticeship lasted years and I probably made less$$$ because I didn't finish school back then. I do regret that.

 

[Brian Marshall]

Do you actually know of a professional engraver/silversmith who added a business degree and got rich working at the bench because of that degree?


B.

 

[silverchip]

I didn't say get "rich" but even an apprentice needs to eat and pay bills.Why shouldn't there be some business sense taught to go with what all there is learn? Just sayin that if I were a pup again, that would be my wish and I would certainly discuss it with a student.at least they should have the benefits of our experiences,good and bad.