Question: Apprenticeship - how does it work in your country?

[Mario Sarto]

I don't know a better place to ask this, because on this forum are people from all over the world. Bob Easton ask in another thread "what makes a master?" That it was, what brings up this question to my mind and i am intrigued, how this works in other countries.

Are there apprenticeships, which needs a control (schools, examinations and so on) by administration (e.g. a Doctor, a policeman, a teacher)? Are there trades, which are free from all regulations - like: "i want to be an engraver, so i am one by now"?
Mario - curious

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Mario

In New Zealand I am pretty sure there is no apprenticeship for engraving ......... I'm unsure if there are any jewellery/watch type aapprenticeships.

However we still have formal apprentices for the trades like mechanics, plumbers etc etc.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Well Mario, I think times are changing. There use to be a need of certified papers in the old days that told one was educated in his profession. it is called a diploma.

Now these days you can even buy almost every diploma true the Internet. LOL
A medicine (doctor) does not even has to show his diploma, an none of his visitors know how he made it to have his diploma. Neither will one know if he finished his study at 90% or just 51%.

So in my opinion, there are a lot of jobs that do not ask for qualifying papers (diplomas) they just want to know how good one is.
And in a way, if you finished school 20 years ago and learned nothing after that, you are out of business these days.

I don’t have to tell it again that I hate school, as in my opinion it does not encourages one best skills, it just tries to make “equal robots” ready for the market. Sure there are some exceptions.

And to give you an example, my youngest son who now is at the age of 29, sure he has a diploma, but he invented his own job and is working at Lionhead Studios in Guildford UK.
He now has a quite important job he likes, and he invented it as it didn’t exist but there was a need for it. Lionhead Studios perhaps some of you know from your children who plays Xbox games or computer games like “Black and White”, Fable etc.
If you do a quick search on Google using his name Sam Van Tilburgh you come out with 97700 results.

Sure all of that is the result of his education, no need to tell I have the same attitude.

So no need for me to be a FEGA master engraver, as it will cost me to much time money to reach it. But when I think the time is there, I will add the title Master Engraver to my name myself. Sure I will be that polite to ask some of you if it is permitted, but I can do it anyway.

I can even start my own private school about engraving and give you a paper when you succeed “Master Engraver” But that will have not much value as again it is your work that proves your skills.

So in my opinion we are all master as we become older and have gathered a lot of “know how” no matter on what.

I know Mario, you are a “Meister Goldsmith” and it is protected by law, but if your work wasn’t that good as it looks, I would call me a also “Meister Goldsmith” in my country, as it is not protected here. And what is in a name?
I’m pretty good in my “goldsmitting work” but how can I have this title? Never went to school for it, like all my know how, I just learned it on my own.

Sure it was a good idea the politics made a law in your country that protects the Masters, but in my opinion it is outdated.

arnaud

 

[Mario Sarto]

In New Zealand I am pretty sure there is no apprenticeship for engraving

If i am a young man who wants to become an engraver, where do i go in New Zealand? Ok, if i would live in Christchurch, i would know, who i would ask
But what about the other ones - do they have to teach them all alone?

 

[Mario Sarto]

..., as in my opinion it does not encourages one best skills, it just tries to make “equal robotsâ€￾ ready for the market.

Hello Arnaud, thank you for your response. Of course i know, a lot of people think, the "Master-thing" is antiquated and only the results of the work should make a true master. However, it wasn't asked in the way "what system is best". No, i am only interested to know how young people start their way into the working life. Just because they have to start somewhere...

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Hello Arnaud, thank you for your response. Of course i know, a lot of people think, the "Master-thing" is antiquated and only the results of the work should make a true master. However, it wasn't asked in the way "what system is best". No, i am only interested to know how young people start their way into the working life. Just because they have to start somewhere...

Mario, I think I also answered that one using my son as a example.

arnaud

 

[Marcus Hunt]

I have someone visiting me next week and her father is gently pushing for a part time apprenticeship for her. She has finished her school and university education so traditionally she's too old for an apprenticeship. But I think we have to get used to the idea of people coming to a trade later in life than was the case previously. A lot of youngsters at age 16 don't really know what they want to do and the 'jobs for life' form of employment isn't really there anymore unless you're a dinosaur like me (and perhaps Arnaud, lol). I would love to give a young person the chance at an apprenticeship but to be honest, what's in it for me? I'm a one man band but if I had more and more work than I could cope with I'd take an apprentice on but it definitely would not be a 16 year old with an instant gratification attitude. But the again, how many people would want to start on a low wage for 5 years in their 20's?

 

[Kevin P.]

"how many people would want to start on a low wage for 5 years in their 20's?"

Only those very few who really want to learn.
There can be a contractual agreement; but if I were in your position I would only accept
a person with whom I connected in some way
And I would definitely decide "what's in it for me" before anything else.
Kevin

 

[James Miller]

As I was fortunate to go through a traditional apprenticeship and was officially indentured to a master via the Goldsmith's Company. On completion of my apprenticeship I became a Freeman of The Goldsmith's company. In my time I have trained two apprentices myself and they also have become Freemen of the Goldsmith's Company. One of the benefits of being a Freeman is that if I want to take on and train an apprentice, providing I meet with certain standards, the Goldsmith's Company will give me a grant to help pay the apprentice's wages. There are many engravers who have been indentured through the Goldsmith's Company and are now Freemen themselves and can use this grant system to train apprentices. If anyone is interested in reading about the Goldsmith's apprentice schemes see; http://www.thegoldsmiths.co.uk/supportforthecraft/apprenticeships.htm

 

[DKanger]

Are there apprenticeships, which needs a control (schools, examinations and so on) by administration

My son is an engineer. He attended Tulane and earned a Bachelor's degree in Civil Engineering and a Masters degree in Structural Engineering. In the engineering field, one must pass a Federal exam to earn the title of PE, or practicing engineer. If one does not have a PE, one cannot work as a lead engineer and is relegated to doing grunt work for his firm. He also cannot advance within the company.

To take the exam, one must have a bachelor's degree and 5 years of work experience in his field. An advanced degree (Masters) counts as one year's work experience. Engineers of all fields must take the same exam and the exam changes every year. It is focused towards a specific discipline, therefore one must have a wide knowledge of other disciplines in order to pass the test......unless you happen to take it when your discipline is featured. The exam can only be taken once a year.

My son passed the exam the first time he took it and did so 3.5 years after graduation. He was awarded one year experience for his advanced degree. I used my professional contacts to obtain jobs for him during summer and winter breaks. Two of those years he worked for a civil engineering firm and two years with an environmental engineering firm. He was awarded 6 months of work experience for these jobs. The year he took the exam, the focused discipline was Environmental Engineering, so his work experience helped tremendously, even though it was not his discipline.

Many in his office have taken the exam up to 10 times and failed. They are working under my son and have not been able to progress within the firm. On the other hand, he has been made a partner in the firm already.

For those of you living in LA, his first project was the "reversibles" in NOLA and he is currently the HNIC of the Huey P. Long bridge refit.

 

[Kevin P.]

Arnaud there's a saying here that the best tools are those you make yourself.
I would also say that the best jobs are those you invent yourself. As your son has.

I think what Andrew says also applies in the US, but I'm not up to date on those things.

There are lots of people (in the US ) who give themselves titles and university degrees which mean nothing. The proof is in the work
There are people who think they can learn a trade via the internet. If it is hand work it has to be learned in person whether plumbing or engraving or jewelry.

The question you ask Mario is very difficult to answer briefly. I'm an 'old dude' who has witnessed enormous cultural changes. If you were more specific, it would be easier to give an answer. I wanted to be a cabinet maker when I was very young. But I couldn't get an apprenticeship unless I had a 'blood' relative already in the 'guild'. Now I think anyone can call himself a cabinet maker.

Mario, the other part of your question "i am only interested to know how young people start their way into the working life." There is no system to deal with how young people start their way.

Europe seems more structured; the US is different in that way. If you are ambitious you can succeed here ( US ) like no where else in the world. That freedom allows for lots of charlatans also.

Kevin

 

[Mario Sarto]

Marcus, i've also read the answer you gave to the question of Bob. I think, this answer would fit in here too, wouldn't it?
So in England it is possible to study/learn without the control of a third party? That is interesting insofar here it is impossible. And that it is why i am asking - thank you.

But the again, how many people would want to start on a low wage for 5 years in their 20's?

For a long time it was illegal to settle down and open a business without an education/papers. Maybe that's why young people still take an apprenticeship training position here. I remember in the first year of my apprenticeship i got 65 Euro per month - hey, i was very happy with that

 

[Mario Sarto]

There are many engravers who have been indentured through the Goldsmith's Company and are now Freemen themselves and can use this grant system to train apprentices.

So it could be an advantage if you are a member of the Goldsmith's Company? Sounds good.

 

[Mario Sarto]

If one does not have a PE, one cannot work as a lead engineer and is relegated to doing grunt work for his firm. He also cannot advance within the company.

Same here, in trades which could be dangerous for other people, you still need papers. Thank you for the answer.

 

[Mario Sarto]

The question you ask Mario is very difficult to answer briefly.

I know ...

There is no system to deal with how young people start their way.

...but you gave me that answer
Like you say, it seems, this makes a lot possible - good or bad.

 

[eastslope]

Except for plumbers, bricklayers, and electricians, I do not think the apprenticeship program exists in America, or I have not heard of it. The engineering field does have levels ending with the PE (Professional Engineer), but it starts with a college degree as mentioned before.

It is unfortunate that the apprenticeship system is basically nonexistent here, but in this day and age of instant gratification, I do not think an apprenticeship would be viable as a whole. I just don't feel that enough young adults would be commited enough to warrant a program.

It also seems that in our fast paced society it is difficult to make time. Heck, I am young, single, with no kids, and I still can't hardly make the time to take an engraving course. What do the people with families and larger commitments do?

 

[Marrinan]

As I mentioned the commercial cabinet business, electricians, plumbers, millwrights, ironworkers and all the other trades involved in commercial construction all operate under apprentice systems here in the us. Each has a pay scale that starts the apprentice at about half journeyman wage and is increased incrementally as time and experience go by. Most of the trades have production workers that often do the same type work but they will never draw the same wage as journeyman. They are also least protected from layoff and often have reduced benefits as well. Were we protective of ourselves - yes-did we protect the integrity of the trade, could you as a contracted call the hall and order a dozen skilled tradesmen-you bet and you knew they could do the job when they arrived for work-proper tools and the skill to use them. Many non union shops are owned and or managed by journeyman from the various trades. they bring their skills and setup production workers to follow their directions. The kitchen cabinet industry in the US is a good example here.

Many of the licensing broads in the various states require testing and supervised work experience under a licensed shop before you can test. Electricians, plumbers, contractors etc.

Ken Hurst probably operated the last apprenticeship program in the US. He hired then trained some of the current stars in the engraving field. Perhaps he will chime in- Fred

 

[James Roettger]

Here in America it's cowboy style in the jewelry and engraving field. You put up a shingle, print a business card and you're good to go. As to qualifications it's buyer beware, "caveat emptor". In a way this is one of the great strengths of America and also one of the weaknesses. Many creative genius types who can't complete a degree are allowed into fields which in other countries might only honor those who are good at completing a formal education. The ability to complete a degree doesn't say say anything about your talent level. I've know people who took courses and come back and still can't function for lack of talent and guts.
The downside is there are a lot of hacks out there but true talent is not held back over technicalities.

Bill Gates was a college drop out, This lack of degree requirement is at the heart of American ingenuity in my opinion.

 

[kguns]

"what makes a master?"

50 YEARS OLD AND HAVE ENGRAVED ALL YOUR LIFE. I

GOT THIS FROM MY NOTES IN A CLASS; TECHNOLOGIE DE GRAVURE 1979 LIEGE BELGIUM MR. MALOIRE Mstr. ENGRAVER FN,L'ECOLE D'ARMURIE

That it was, what brings up this question to my mind and i am intrigued, how this works in other countries.

Are there apprenticeships, NONE IN THE U.S.

Are there trades, which are free from all regulations

GUN ENGRAVING

wHAT DO YOU MEAN BY rEGULATIONS ?????

- like: "i want to be an engraver, so i am one by now"?

I YOU SAY SO

Mario - curious [/QUOTE]

 

[Kevin P.]

James you are an example of what an apprenticeship program does well as witness your work.

There are those who function well under a more structured system and those who don't.
I taught myself lapidary. I made lots of mistakes and could have learned some basics quicker; but I made discoveries doing things in a way that 'weren't done.
Kevin