Announcement: Announcement

[bram ramon]

Hey Guys/Girls,

I officially wanted to excuse my self for sometimes being arrogant/ being the nagging one..
I'm very strait and don't walk around the pot. And that causes misunderstandings.. Last 2 years i worked day and night to be where i'm now, and i still have tons to learn.

Now for the future i'm going to keep my opinion for my self and won't post any more comments ore tips only for them I know by person.
I'm to much misunderstood and being taken for mr vinegar..
But i you have questions on engraving drawing feel free to PM me, i'd love helping you!

Keep up the good work!:hammer:

Have a nice week

bram ramon

 

[JJ Roberts]

bram,I sorry to hear you will not be sharing your talents with us on the forums,I hope you change your mind. J.J.

 

[Christian DeCamillis]

Bram,

Of course the choice is your but to me you have and do contribute a lot of good information . You are always willing to help. e all have opinions and beliefs that won't be agreed with by all. To me if people don't question things then nothing changes and many times we find that the contrary is correct over what is and has been the standard. As was my discovery of a few things like the wider geometry giving a darker line

with you at least you could do what you said. You are and have been an inspiration to many and have shown what hard work and dedication can result in. People may not always agree with an opinion but at least they have something new to think about. Marcus has always told it like it is and at times people took his sincerity of trying to help as arrogance. Nothing could be more opposite than that. He gives his advice freely and openly. No sugar coating but he is sincere in wanting to help and we have all learned from it. I think in many ways you have done the same.

I for one appreciate it. I don't think we help anyone by telling people that things are good when there not . If done correctly the critique will do what it is intended. Andrew does this very well he always compliments what should be and then tells you what's wrong but he always follows through with how or at least suggestions of how to make it better.

Thanks

Chris

 

[Sam]

Bram: We have all enjoyed your posts and your beautiful art. Not sure what transpired but I respect your decision.

Cheers / ~Sam

 

[tim wolf]

As a beginning engraver it is nice when people tell me 'nice job' Tim. But to be honnest, that is not always what i want to hear! That way i don't learn a damn thing. What i really want to hear is real critisim! I'm not affread if someone takes down my work, as long as they do it in a polite way and don't insult me in person. That will help me a lot more then that pat on my shoulder. So Bram, keep doing what you were doing and keep posting please, it is a pleasure to see your work.
Greetings,
Tim Wolf.

 

[Steveareno]

Bram

Now that’s really pathetic Surely you will be missed. I have truly enjoyed your art and even your character, maybe you could reconsider. It’s been a pleasure to know you.

All the best
Steve Shepherd

 

[mitch]

Hi Bram-

Your last two threads (Exam Plate & School Drawing Project) have almost 2,000 views. You're going to stop posting because you think a few people don't like your attitude?

 

[Big-Un]

Bram, I'm sorry for your decision not to participate in the forum and respect your decision, but I must also encourage you to reconsider. Take the various comments against your work or attitude as from those enviable of your talent and honesty as what they are; people sometimes can't stand honesty, integrity and talent. Consider who they are from with a grain of salt and continue to participate here. I, for one, am always interested in your work and opinions.

Bill

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Bram, I respect whatever you decide.
However, life would be boring with only people in the middle. It is people like you who dare to speak freely, who make life interesting.
And there aren’t that much of them.

Ik was al blij dat ik niet alleen tegen de heilige huisjes moest stampen!

If you get frustrated in this Internet world, you probably will too in the rest of the world. Most important if you want to make changes, keep on knocking.

arnaud

 

[Mike Fennell]

You are thousands of miles away from most of us, but have been an inspiration to many through this website. How many of your colleagues can you actually meet in person? Most of us will probably never meet you face-to-face, but many wish to keep hearing from you.

Please reconsider. Your input is valuable here. I would hate to see many others take the path you suggest. Of course the decision is yours to make, but I think we will all lose by it.

 

[Eugene Carkoski]

I noticed on this site and some others, that the more talent you have you will draw more criticism of your work because people will expect more of you. If you're going to be an artist, you need to develop a thicker hide. Keep in touch

 

[bram ramon]

Come on People,

I'm not leaving!!^^I'll keep you guys up to date with the work i do. I only won't participate on discussions any more.
And i have that much work i don't have the time for it neither.

I'm not pointing any fingers here, in the discussions we had and i won't admit i had a big mouth where, again i'm sorry for.. I believe maybe when i'm 60 i'll have the time and the experience My mom alway told me; "speech is silver, silence is gold.." And more and more not only thanks to her i believe that is the truth.

Again you can always reach me by PM and i'll be around!!

Thank ALL of you!!

 

[tundratrekers@mtaonline.n]

Good for you Bram !!!!!
I knew this would happen.
God Bless,
michael

 

[rayf24]

Bram
although I now live in the UK being Australian born we had a saying out there DON'T LET THE B---TEDS GET YOU DOWN. There are those out in engraving land which maybe just a little miffed that you have so much talent and the teachers at the school to bring it out some people will not say it but I will that you have more skill than some that have been engraving for ten to twenty years ( this comment is not pointed at any one person) and dont like the fact you can walk the walk, I for one look forward to your posts and comments if people cant handle comment then dont post stay out of the kitchen.
Ray
P.S We need more people with big mouths telling the truth

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Ooooh, I don't like threads like this....it's all happened before.....

Bram, unfortunately you have to be so careful in the way you put things in emails and on forums because they are so open to misinterpretation. If you said exactly the same thing in person as you said in a post the person you are talking to picks up on all sorts of other signals that just aren't there in the written word. So if you say something about copying in person the one you're saying it to can see whether you are being serious or not. Not so with the electronic word. Even a smiley face doesn't always stop us coming across as arrogant.

As an example (and this is only my opinion), as engravers, when we start out we copy. We have to in order to understand what's good and what's not. If everyone just did their own thing chaos would reign and sometimes I think it does because everyone is so caught up in trying to be unique the result is often a mess. Your pictures in the other post Bram are great but the elements that build up the scrollwork are classic and not unique. How you've combined the elements is the unique part but those scrolls have been around for centuries. Likewise, the angel; I thought I'd seen it somewhere before.
http://spanish.alibaba.com/product-gs/classic-angel-lovers-nude-oil-painting-479406442.html
You have done what artists have done for centuries and that is been influenced by something else and used it to a certain extent. You've tried to look at the angel from a slightly different angle (thats why the foot doesnt look quite right) and turned his head and adjusted the arms but essentially there is no denying this is the same angel but you've used a different woman and turned her around to make the picture your own. You've not copied but have been influenced and that happens throughout art and engraving.

There is nothing wrong with doing this whatsoever, as I say, artists have been doing it for centuries. Where a misinterpretation can occur is when someone sees what looks like a smart arse comment about copying (even if it was meant as a joke) when the elements used in the drawings presented aren't necessarily "unique" and this can come across as a bit arrogant.

I don't know if you are actually working for any gunmakers yet but you will get asked to work in a certain style and often to "copy" a certain design. Gunmakers are a business and they don't all have the time to wait for a certain engraver to find a slot for them to copy one of their previous works. They'll ask/tell another engraver to do "something in the style of" rather than "copy" because they have orders to fulfil. It's a fact of life and if you are a commercial engraver you've got to get used to it or you won't get that many orders unless you are something very special (by the way, I'm not pointing this last statement at you Bram but everyone). You have to produce what the customer/gunmaker wants and not what you want to do unless you buy your own gun, engrave it and resell it.

Your contributions have always been interesting Bram and you have a lot of talent and potential to go far but I have read certain of your posts in the past and thought "Mmmmmm" and felt my neck bristle sometimes but I'm old enough and ugly enough to let certain things go for the peace of the forum. As I said, I've been in the same position as you before now and it's nearly always been down to me being forthright and speaking my mind and it being misinterpreted. It seems that the English language is far from universal.

I respect your decision if you decide not to contribute to the forum any more but I do think it would be a very sad loss for all of us if you don't.

 

[Roger Bleile]

Part of the difficulty is that when a person is writing in a language that is not their native language, it is easy to be misunderstood, especially if there is an attempt at humor. When I am responding to someone who is not a native English speaker, I try to avoid joking references that only an American will understand and I also avoid using idioms because an idiom's figurative meaning is separate from the literal meaning or definition of the words of which it is made. We have to keep in mind that a non-English speaker may be using an Internet translator to interpret our remarks. The translating software usually can only give a literal translation.

For example, I don't speak Dutch at all, so I used Google Translate to interpret Arnaud's Dutch saying above. He wrote: "Ik was al blij dat ik niet alleen tegen de heilige huisjes moest stampen!" Google translated it as: "I was glad I had not stamping! Alone against the sacred cows" I don't know about the rest of you but I still don't understand what Arnaud meant but I'm sure that Bram (who the saying was directed to) understands the idiom.

It seems like Bram, Arnaud, and some of our other European members are pretty fluent in English but I can tell that others are using translating software to help with their comments. That is OK with me because I would rather try to decipher a poorly worded comment than to miss out on the participation of international members.

Cheers,
Roger

 

[Willem Parel]

For example, I don't speak Dutch at all, so I used Google Translate to interpret Arnaud's Dutch saying above. He wrote: "Ik was al blij dat ik niet alleen tegen de heilige huisjes moest stampen!" Google translated it as: "I was glad I had not stamping! Alone against the sacred cows" I don't know about the rest of you but I still don't understand what Arnaud meant but I'm sure that Bram (who the saying was directed to) understands the idiom.
Cheers,
Roger

You are so very right Roger, even now when I would like to give you the right translation I can't find the englisch words for Arnauds line to give the right interpretation although I know very well what he means.
That's why I sometimes don't participate in discussions to avoid misunderstanding.

 

[rayf24]

Marcus / Roger and others excellent replies I for one prefer straight comments being far more constructive than the ATTBOY way having only been scratching a little over 15 months and had no time to do so in the last 4 months bloody work getting in the way, but sometime ago I posted an image of a practise piece and Marcus let me have it big his comments were only the truth but I did take onboard what was said without feeling down about it or letting it get to me which I personally prefer, but this maybe that 56 years thickens the skin yet saying this someone else made comments that did get up my nose about the anatomy of the subject, a so call master engraver which upon a vist to their site revealed their anatomy skill were no better than that of a novice. (Whats that about casting the first stone thing) I think for we new boys and girls if we show some work and ask for comment and when the true masters and other skill engravers make comments or critque the work its well worth listening being that there is so much to be learnt here and elsewere on site like this.
Ray

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Roger, that's why when foreign politicians meet they use an interpreter rather than a translator. There's a huge difference between the two and is why when one side goes rambling off on a long statement the interpreter will often shorten it to one or two sentences and, once again, body language, etc, also play a part.

I hope Arnaud will correct me if I'm wrong but I would interpret that sentence as meaning " I'm glad it wasn't me standing alone and stamping my foot against the sacred cows (those who cannot be challenged)." And if that is the case I'd like to know who he thinks are the "sacred cows" because, bar a few basic rules to make scrollwork aesthetically pleasing, nothing is set in stone as regards engraving. If you find something, a tool, a design, anything that works for you and creates good work then use it.

No one I know who is an engraver worth their salt (that's an English saying referring to when people were paid in salt and where the word salary comes from ) is ever close minded enough not to be open to new ideas. I don't know one top of their field engraver who wouldn't consider using an idea presented by a newbie if it was worthwhile and helped their work.

But in the beginning there does have to be some kind of structure and it does no harm to lay down a solid foundation to work from. Maybe this is what Arnaud thinks are "sacred cows"?

 

[Gemsetterchris]

That's good Marcus as long as the " newbie" got credit for the idea.
I would have thought most people would recognise a non-native English post & have the intellect to be abit more lenient as sometimes things come across as abit blunt.
Similar problem with "proper English & American".
Nevermind Bram..you can't please everyone.